V8 Freak Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 I had a re-engineerd engine put into the 110 approx. 6k miles back... From day 1 it's been using / losing oil. Initially I thought it was using oil as it was running in. Nothing out the tailpipe though ! Then discovered seeping rocker cover gaskets... Went back to people who fitted it...Replaced. Then found leak to rear of engine at top... Went back to people who fitted it and was sealed. Then found evidence of sump gasket leaking. Back again and sump re-sealed. Then drove 175 miles with average moving speed at 57mph (i.e. not being pushed at all..) Dipped the oil and...... It was on the "W" of the word LOW.... So back around the engine, under it and nothing except..... The engine oil is clear.. When you dab the drops, it's apparent the oil is clear but has picked up what could be clutch dust or similar... Could I have a worn/badly fitted/leaking main shaft bearing or seal ? There is oil collecting on the transfer box during journeys. (I don't think this is leaking from transfer box now) There is no evidence of other oil under the car apart from on the lower part of the transfer box and parking brake. This doesn't look excessive but I'm guessing most will be blown away durning travelling. No clutch slip that I've noticed but losing approx. 600ml of oil per 200 miles now!!! I'm confident the engine is not burning the oil. The exhaust gasses are clear and no blue clouds have ever come from the exhaust. Are there any suggestions ? I'm happy to answer any questions that might help diagnose this. Thanks in advance Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 those small drips won't equate to a litre of oil Neil I have tons more under mine and no movement on the dipstick. I reckon it must be being burnt. just my uneducated V8 opinion. Best thing is rip it out and fit a Diesel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Freak Posted January 28, 2007 Author Share Posted January 28, 2007 I guessed the final comment would appear in most posts.... (Getting predictable) If I were burning that much Tony, I would have turned your car black when you were behind me on Salisbury Plain ! I had Rupert follow me today for a few miles.. Nothing out the back ! (Even when being pushed through the revs..) I'm wondering if those drips are all that's left when I stop. (i.e. what has come before has been blown off as I drive along..) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyoldgit Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 Run the engine at high revs while stationary and hot and take a look for drips, also check for oily deposits at the tailpipe. I'd also be keen to run shove an exhaust gas analyser too. Is it still under warranty? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 Neil we aim to please you'd have a trail of oil underneath is the rear axle covered in oil? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OilIT Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 Run the engine at high revs while stationary and hot and take a look for drips, also check for oily deposits at the tailpipe. I'd also be keen to run shove an exhaust gas analyser too. Is it still under warranty? daft question - you havent got a wading plug fitted which is keeping your secret stash of oil in the bellhousing have you? As for blowing off, when i had a major leak from my gearbox - i had a small amount of drops underneath, but the rear axle and the back door gave the tell tale signs of an oil slick ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Freak Posted January 28, 2007 Author Share Posted January 28, 2007 Thankfully Steve it is still under warranty. I'd like to try and nail it as I can't find leaks now and would like to be relatively confident of what I'm saying if I need to I take it back and get them to take it out and make good !! No oily deposits at the rear.... But I like your suggestion of drip counting.. Will get that sorted one evening this week or next weekend... When gasses were sipped for the MOT it was running a little rich but was under the required CO2 levels. Nothing else was monitored though. Thanks for the suggestion of stationary running.... Drip tray and camera here we come... Tony / oilIT..... Rear axle pretty clean. Was seeping from diff seal, that's been replaced and now axle looks pretty dry... Back door not covered in oil. I can't see where all this oil could be going.. Like you suggest, it would see it under the car... But the underside is fairly devoid of oil. No wading plugs and last week when we took the plate that covers the bottom of the bellhousing off, (Can be seen in the pic posted) it had dust but no evidence of masses of oil being thrown off the flywheel ! If you need any specific pictures of the car to help diagnosis, please suggest away and I'll snap and post them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OilIT Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 Have you done a compression test? Another quick check: when you had somebody follow you - did they check when you were on the 'overun' (im sure you said its a petrol right !)- ie best example is go down a hill - half way down - take foot of accelerator and see if a load of blue smoke appears with the engine deceleratingthe car - not always visible from inside when driving? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Freak Posted January 28, 2007 Author Share Posted January 28, 2007 I decelerated from approx. 70 to 50 with him behind me, engine braking only but on the flat..... He didn't see anything for the whole run. I'll see about finding a hill and some daylight next weekend and employ Rupert again.. Not done compression test. (But engine runs smooth on tickover and revs fine... ) Will see if the boys in work have some gadget to do that for me.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwriyadh Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 Have you checked the engine breathers are clear? jw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Freak Posted January 28, 2007 Author Share Posted January 28, 2007 Engine breathers are clear.. Checked last week... (Assuming it is meant the breather tubes at top of engine from rocker covers to air-filter...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diff Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 You won't want to hear this, but it is very likely that the problem lies with the rings/pistons/bores. The fact that it has sprung several leaks since rebuild, could indicate excess crankcase pressure. If you were leaking that much oil, it would be all over underside of the Landy, and very obvious. Once the engine was hot, it would be dripping out on the floor in a big way. It could be burning the oil at speed on the motorway, and it wouldn't necessarily show up as an oily/smoky tailpipe. Compression test 'may' show up low readings, but they may not be significantly low on a newly rebuilt engine at cranking speed. It is possible for the oil control rings to not be doing their job and still retain reasonable compression on a test. If the piston ring gaps have not been set correctly on rebuild, you may see this problem. Was it a complete build with new pistons, rebore etc? Glad it is under warranty, Let them know ASAP, and keep telling them! Regards, Diff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Freak Posted January 29, 2007 Author Share Posted January 29, 2007 It was a total re-build. Re-bore, re-sleeved , pistons, crank, bearings etc..... I'm in touch with them regularly so no fear they know what is going on and I'm sure they are aware that I will not rest on the matter if I have any feeling that the build was compromised in any way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 An emissions test will not necessarily show up oil-burning as they measure other gases / emissions, not oil. V8Bertha had a problem like that with his old engine when we MS'd it it ended up really rich because there was so much oil going down the exhaust it coated the oxygen sensor and registered as lean mixture even when it was stinking rich If Diff is right (and he's cleverer than me) then the excess pressure could blow through the breathers (or be sucked through) and burnt relatively cleanly, leaving no noticable blue smoke. Who rebuilt the engine, or would you rather not say? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 Neil, I guess the first question to ask is, what oil grade /type are you using ? Might seem a stupid question , but if you are using a ‘thin’ oil then the RV8 engine will burn it very fast …………….. and you wouldn't even notice any smoke. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Freak Posted January 29, 2007 Author Share Posted January 29, 2007 So let me get this right Fridge.... If the oil is being burnt /turning to vapour in some way outside the normal piston compression routine and sucked through the carb as vapour (off the rocker covers) it could burn and might not be seen as blue cloud !! WOW.... As for engine re-build.. I'd rather not say. We are still on good terms and I'm not convinced this wasn't an un-lucky re-build.. Met quite a few of their other customers while I've been sitting in their offices over the various visits and no-one has had a bad word to say either over the counter or listening to the phone calls they are handling. Ian... Using 10w-40.. Went for it to get the viscosity at higher temps as I had read V8's can run hot.... Did I get it wrong go the wrong way ? Also looked at the little temp label on the core plugs tonight. The 99 degree one has coloured some but not as black as the 88 degree bar. (Ignore the oil stain.. It was there after re-sealing the sump.... Had a good look and not leaking now....) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Neil, The underside seems reasonably clean …………… if you were losing a litre of oil in 200 miles the complete underside from the engine back would be dripping with oil. This is bad for an engine that has only done 6K since a rebuild. I rebuilt mine 45K ago and it never uses any oil between changes (I change it every 3K). I think now is the time to get into it a little deeper. To be honest most V8’s that I have known that burn oil, don’t usually advertise the fact with clouds of blue smoke. Before the rebuild mine was using a litre every 3 to 400 miles ……….. but no noticeable smoke. This is probably a shoddy build …………. and could be the result of, broken rings when the pistons were fitted, a very poor rebore (I seen a few of those before), or something simple like very worn valve guides & stems. When I say shoddy ……… that’s not saying the builder is a rip off merchant, its just sometimes not everything in the world is perfect all of the time. What you really need to do is a compression test and then post up the results. £20 spent on something like a draper compression gauge will be money well spent as it will give you the ammo (in hard facts) to back to the builder with. Do the test with the engine cold. Once the results are posted, then we can diagnose more easily and advise you further. HTH Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Freak Posted January 30, 2007 Author Share Posted January 30, 2007 Thanks for your words of wisdom Ian.. I'm gonna do the fast idle MOG suggested this evening and see if I got a river of oil flowing out the engine somewhere... Will also pull the air filter off to see if I'm getting vapourised oil out of the breathers while all that's going on... Halfrauds do a compression tester for £19 so will grab one of those and aim to do the tests and post cylinder readings tomorrow all being well.... I'm not trying to accuse the builder of shoddy work, as you say, things are not always perfect. If a ring did break during the install and is not obvious until stripped down, it isn't malicious, just unlucky. The owner of the company that did the work has been very keen to sort this for me and I'm sure if we have anything that points to the correct solution, he will get it sorted... Results to follow.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Freak Posted January 31, 2007 Author Share Posted January 31, 2007 Ok..... Ran for approx. 30 minutes at just under 3k.... Not a drop ! (Well there was one drop from the PAS pump... New thing on the list of things to spend money on...) Lifted filter off and nothing out of the breather tubes from rocker cover that go into the air filter. So we are now waiting on a compression test, hopefully tomorrow, to try and prove some other theories... Regards temperatures.... Is 100 Degrees considered excessive for the core plugs on a V8 ? Considering the water system is placed under pressure to get it to go to above 100 degrees, is it unreasonable to record 100 degrees on the core plugs ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyoldgit Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 But the breathers & tubes are clear? Be interesting to see how the compressions compare. Was this engine run in at all? I have the words glazed bores floating around at the back of my mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Freak Posted January 31, 2007 Author Share Posted January 31, 2007 Breather tubes are clear...... Also removed the oil filler cap and nothing out the top.... (After aborting the test there was a small amount of oil smoke from oil filler, just whisps though and it was sub zero last night when we did this so not sure if it was temperature difference related..) When I collected the car after the re-furb, I ran it in for 2k ish.... Run home was 150 miles straight off and didn't go over 50 mph. It was horribly boring but it happened.... Only occasionally above 4k RPM and never laboured... Oil level was and is checked weekly as I was expecting the engine to use some while it was bedding in.... Also found a tempremental exhaust analyser that I may be able to get on the car on Friday... If it works and gives readings I'll post... If it's glazed bores... What is the solution ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 glazed bores will mean a engine strip, so the bores can be re-honed to remove the glazing. hope it does't come to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happyoldgit Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 glazed bores will mean a engine strip, so the bores can be re-honed to remove the glazing. hope it does't come to that. Aye but if it's under warranty then i should take some of the sting out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8 Freak Posted January 31, 2007 Author Share Posted January 31, 2007 Ok.. Head thumping and cold taking hold, but I promised some numbers tonight. Engine stone cold. (Not started for 20 hours ish) Plugs in same order as cylinders. (i.e. bottom right = 1, next up=3 etc.) Readings.... Unfortunately I forgot to hold throttle open so rotations were slow. If I feel up to it I'll do again tomorrow and re-post if readings any different. Right bank: (LB/in squared) 1 - 152 3 - 154 5 - 154 7 - 157 Left bank: 2 - 152 4 - 159 6 - 156 8 - 152 It's a 3.5 V8, nothing special sort of engine.... I've been reading up trying to see what's normal and found no results but most are suggesting that doing this on a warm engine and yes... Hold throttle open for better rotation speed... Sorry, brain dead and off to sleep now.... Ian, if you advise doing again, hot or cold but with throttle open, please say so.... Happy to go again when feeling better. Neil, feeling carp, signing off.... Edit: Just had email from the company that did the re-build and they are suggesting from the core plug temerature picture I sent that the engine has run excessively hot at some point..... Tring to suggest the unconventional fan setup (Twin electric fans, no brand name, fitted to rad...) is insufficient, yet they keep the engine at normal on the guage on tickover or when crawling in low ratio for hours.... Can someone reading this give me their opinion if 100 degrees Centigrade reading on a core plug is considered dangerous for a V8 engine... I'm baffled as the coolant system it placed under pressure to get the boiling temperature of the water in that system over 100 degrees.... And.. Given the proximity of the core plug sticker thingy to the exhausts, wouldn't they potentially affect the reading ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 If that label is near the zorst then IMHO radiant heat could well have turned it. We used some of those at work to track overheating equipment - some bright spark at the council installed it in a black street cabinet in front of a white wall that got sun all day, you could hardly touch the equipment in summer without oven gloves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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