EFI install

[mike4444244]

Hi,

Not strictly landrover but landy engine! I'm building a kit car at the mo, using a 3.5 rover v8 out of an sd1, so the higher CR 9.35:1, I was planning to fit a weber/edelbrock 4 barrel carb, but after a few comments i have heard i'm exploring the idea of fitting efi instead... this seems by general consensus to produce more bhp and will be significantly cheaper, cost is a fairly big factor

questions are...

can i just buy he relevant bits and bolt them on (what are they?)

How easy is it to wire up, bearing in mind i'm building a loom from scratch?

Can I use the facet fuel pump i have already or do i need a rangy one?

what sort of efi systems are available, and how much are they, how easy are they to wire up, how easy are they to tune? i guess it'll need to be adjusted to suit a 450kg car

Thats about it... please could someone answer these using the peter and jane version with the big pictures cos i dont have a clue about vehicle electrics its why i drive a diesel defender....

Ta

Mike

[FridgeFreezer]

Find a decent flapper setup (simpler wiring) and then chuck the ECU and AFM and fit a MegaSquirt ECU. A quick search round here & tech archive should tell you all you need to know. You can buy Emerald / Omex / Webcon ECU's but you are looking at about £2k to get near the MS's functionality. Expect to pay no more than £50 for a flapper setup (esp. since you don't need the two expensive bits) and a MS ECU is £225 built.

[v8bertha]

Last time I went to Sodbury Sortout, I managed to pick up an inlet manifold complete with injectors, plenum chamber, AFM, resistor pack etc etc for £20.

Then Fridge went and found the exact same setup but only paid a tenner

Megasquirt is definately the way to go if you want to be able to tune it, as you can't do much with the standard LR efi setup.

D

[mike4444244]

Thanks for the replies chaps

I'm a long way off running the engine so will sort out ecu later on, just out of interest theres a guy on locostbuilders who sells megaquirt kits ready made with built in usb and loom and things (can you tell i haven't got a clue ) for £175 all in? I take it this is good value?

I could do with getting the other bits now though so i can see how big a bonnet bulge i need etc! just to make sure let me just check i need the following, inlet manifold, trumpet things, injectors, kickdown cable for autobox, plenum chamber... anything else?

Ta

Mike

[FridgeFreezer]

£175 for a V2.2 ECU is about right, the V3's are more robust though (same brain but built differently).

You'll need an EFi fuel pump, you can get inline types from things like cavaliers, jags etc. or from FSI. The Rover setup runs at 37psi which is lower than many modern cars, 45psi being the other popular pressure.

The criteria for fuel pump and injector selection is BHP not engine size, hence a fuel pump from a Cavalier GSI will happily run a 3.5 V8.

[mike4444244]

Hi

Hes selling v3 for that price, thanks for the info off to scour the web for a complete set up now, and try to find a buyer for me fuel pump....

Mike

[FridgeFreezer]

Got a link 'cos that sounds cheap?

[mike4444244]

hi

yeah its mentioned on this tread here

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=57869

Ta

Mike

[FridgeFreezer]

It's mentioned but I can't see a link to a V3 for £200, all I see is the link to ExtraEFI.co.uk who I would not hesitate to buy from as the guy behind it helped out with a lot of MS development work over the years.

[mike4444244]

Hi

I think its a guy called calvinX that makes them, he says his kit is well under £200 but dosent say how much cos i think he builds each one to order to your spec. looks like a good deal though? Best thing would be to email him?

Thanks for all your help BTW!

Mike

[FridgeFreezer]

Sounds really cheap - the V3 kit of parts is about £165 although you can do it cheaper if you buy a bulk order of components from the likes of RS and build lots of ECU's, then you've got the serial cable etc. etc. either he's cutting corners or really doesn't value his spare time

[Range Rover Blues]

Sorry but I have to dissagree. If I were fitting an EFi system to a kit car I'd go for a hotwire from a 3.9 or 4.2. These are a much more robust system than the 3.5 flapper, for which VAF sensors are hard to find, and will cope with small amounts of tuning on the 3.9, eg a sports pipe and K&N, so will cope with more on the 3.5. That said, a pair of EFi heads, 3.9 cam and sports pipe will see you with a good few extra horses in an engine that will still start first go.

You could pick up a ful hot-wire system for under £200, £150 of that being the ECU, so if you get that cheaper all the better. All the info for testing an EFi system at home with a multi meter can be found in the back of the Haynes manual for RRC.

If you wanmt to go crazy with it RPI will supply a Tornado chip for about £350.

This EFi system is what's in my mate's TVR 430HC and that's good for over 300BHP.

[geoffbeaumont]

You could pick up a ful hot-wire system for under £200, £150 of that being the ECU, so if you get that cheaper all the better. All the info for testing an EFi system at home with a multi meter can be found in the back of the Haynes manual for RRC.

Less than that - I bought a full 3.9 hotwire kit off eBay for, IIRC £110 including P&P a while back. I'd still (and am in the process of) go for Megasquirt, though, if I was doing it from scratch. If I was doing another truck that was already hotwire I'd probably just fit Megajolt to do the ignition and keep the original fuel injection, but there are down sides - I've got misfire at the moment, which I suspect is a dead sensor but with hotwire and no diagnostic computer I've no idea which one. The only way of diagnosing it is to monitor or change each sensor in turn. So I'm finishing the Megasquirt install instead so I can just plug a laptop in and see what's going on...

[FridgeFreezer]

Sorry but I have to dissagree. If I were fitting an EFi system to a kit car I'd go for a hotwire from a 3.9 or 4.2. These are a much more robust system than the 3.5 flapper, for which VAF sensors are hard to find, and will cope with small amounts of tuning on the 3.9, eg a sports pipe and K&N, so will cope with more on the 3.5. That said, a pair of EFi heads, 3.9 cam and sports pipe will see you with a good few extra horses in an engine that will still start first go.

You could pick up a ful hot-wire system for under £200, £150 of that being the ECU, so if you get that cheaper all the better. All the info for testing an EFi system at home with a multi meter can be found in the back of the Haynes manual for RRC.

If you wanmt to go crazy with it RPI will supply a Tornado chip for about £350.

This EFi system is what's in my mate's TVR 430HC and that's good for over 300BHP.

Hotwire is not that robust, the ECU is far fussier about things and there's about twice as much wiring in the loom. The stepper idle valves are prone to faults and are "How effing much???" to replace. On the plus side, the later style fuel rail and injectors are a better option than the flapper ones but can be retro-fitted.

Both types are MAF so will cope with quite a bit of tuning.

3.9 efi heads are identical to 3.5 heads, I have held both up side by side and they're the same. And why would you spend £350 on a chip when you can spend £250 on a fully tunable ECU that will run fuel and spark?

[Ally V8]

Have been watching this thread for a while,I wasnt going to join in.But I dont agree that that the hotwire system is fussy,unreliable or expensive.When it came out it finally "made" the Rover V8,it is reliable, efficient, simple has proper control of idle speed and can run open or closed loop.If you can be bothered to understand it you dont even need Testbook to diagnose it,I only ocassionally hook it up,for speed more than anything,(not that I see many of them now)most of the time I use the trusty Fluke. The stepper motors get blamed for all idling problems when 9 times out of 10 there is nothing wrong with them.

In terms of ease of setting up,price and s/h parts availability there is nothing close to it,it is only bettered by Gems and then the Bosch Motronic on the LP RR's from 95-02.These two systems really do need Testbook tho,so are not really Diy friendly.

As for the old Lucas flapper 4CU system - dont bother its carp,unreliable ECU's and that horrible Bimetallic valve for a really crude warm up high idle speed.I have a pile of dead bits inc ECU's that will all go in the bin at the next tidy up.

[Range Rover Blues]

well at least one person agrees with me. If you can get a full hot-wire system for £110 then why-oh-why go to all the bother of building anything else?

The hot wire system can be checked over with a multimeter and a bit of patience.

Fussy? one of my cars has no speed sensor connected, no lambdas and will still runs with the MAF missing completely. I know my LSE will runs without it and before you say anything, no it doesn't run in limp mode and it doesn't use more fuel.

Each to their own I guess, I just don't have time to faff around with bespoke sytems that may or may not work and have no off-the-shelf replacement parts.

[geoffbeaumont]

Each to their own I guess, I just don't have time to faff around with bespoke sytems that may or may not work and have no off-the-shelf replacement parts.

On the contrary - every part of the Megasquirt except the circuit board itself is available off the shelf (and that can be obtained fairly easily and quickly too. Parts are all cheap new (unlike several major components of Hotwire). It's very well proven, in many fields from off roading to racing and plenty of people without a great deal of skill with electronics have managed to install it. It's normally set up to use the standard sensors for the vehicle. Given that the same system happily runs so many different engines I'd even argue that it's far less bespoke than most OEM systems (albeit you can start building extensions to it if you want to).

I've no problem with Hotwire though - seems to do a perfectly adequate job to me, although some people have reported their engines run better with Megasquirt, particularly with regard to things like idle speed control. I'll have an opinion when I've finished installing mine - so far it's only controlling ignition timing (Ford EDIS, which was the main reason for installing it).

Given my truck runs on LPG most of the time (which won't be controlled by Megasquirt) it isn't really worth the hassle of a full Megasquirt conversion and I should have just fitted one of the cut down ignition only versions like Megajolt. However if I was starting from scratch I'd definitely go the Megasquirt route.

[FridgeFreezer]

and have no off-the-shelf replacement parts.

Would Sir like the RS part numbers and data sheets for every individual component, the commented source code of the firmware, the schematic of the PCB or the development environment it was coded in?

[Range Rover Blues]

No thanks, I know which shelf in my lock-up is bristling with spare parts for my hot-wire thanks.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

I spent 20 years on V8s, and the flappers were never that good. When they work they are fine, but rememebr that these were built when BL were extra short of cash, and the qulaity was erm "Variable". I have spent HOURS and hours on the latest engine, and the bits that have failed are mnay, being an eales many bits are BL but from jag, and yes they are all avaiaible - but at a price, and the technology inside although new is still 25 years old ++

Hotwire is better, but still a horror. They are not robust for off raoding, and shaking about, many will disagree, and thats fine having done comp safaris in them I can assure you you need a load of spares, as the prices new for a AFM HW are dreadfull.

The ECUs are not that clever, Mark adams and I have chatted many hours over the meriats of ECUs, and the top acers no have moved to programable ECUs and systems that allow users to both tune and see whats going on, DTA is now fitted to eales, and there are a raft of kits inc Megasquirt that basically simplifiy and improve massively on the lucas bodge system.

However, the addage is true that get a good one and you might be fine, but often of not they will fail, part due to the old technology being 20+ years old and partly if used in water and anti ECU Freindly off road jaunts.

The good thing with Falpper and HW SH stuff is it can be sourced cheaply, but the number of systems I and mates have fought against seems to incrrase.

Megasquirt is modern, the attraction of plugging in a laptop to see why its not behabving is superb, yes testbook does this too on gems stuff but at a horrible costs for any DIYer.

MS also helps with the dreaded waterproofing of V*s, I have the part system Megajolt which frankly I should have fitted years ago.

The V8 was designed by buick, and IMHO B8ggered about with by BL, the early stuff treally was a bodge, pure and simple, a bigger petrol head and V* fan you'll be hard pushed to find than me, although a 5.7 chevy still I think beats the rover hands down, but I still have a V8 Rover with all is faults, the Lucar*e system will be the last bit to go.

I may be a fan of V8 Rovers, but I have never belived the EFI system was up to much, carbs on it work pretty well, but the EFI was only ever done for the land of US" Hell Yeah" A, and their emmissions. MS Is also cheap, compared with virtaully any component of the many in a rover EFI System, DTA is the rough end of £3000, and according to Mark Adamas you need to know what you are doing to set it up - he rates MS as a cheap relaible ssytem, and has now worked on a few.

Megasquirt may not be to many peoples liking for all sorts of reasons, time and fabrication skills and efforts being 3, there are more, as many of the posts here will testify too,......... but please don't say Lucas = wonderfull....

Nige

[FridgeFreezer]

No thanks, I know which shelf in my lock-up is bristling with spare parts for my hot-wire thanks.

So it's nice and reliable then

[Ally V8]

Hybrid,I still think you are being unfair to the hotwire system,as I said before it made the V8 run properly for the first time.Carbs - huh, bounce them about and they are hopeless.Su's are Ok but flood at extreme angles,Strombergs were constantly needing tuning and new diaphrams.

I do agree the Lucas 4Cu flapper system was carp,but it did move things on a bit.As for using Injection to appease the US,that is just rubbish,do you really think we would still all have a choke knob if it were not for Uncle Sam ?

I should hope the top guys are using a programmable system,things have moved on and it is just another part of being competetive.Thing is Hotwire is reliable,can be fitted and maintained by anyone who can read a wiring diagram and use a multimeter.Not everyone wants to hook up a laptop to their car,but want more than carbs will do.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

As for using Injection to appease the US,that is just rubbish,do you really think we would still all have a choke knob if it were not for Uncle Sam ?

I suggest you read the Rover V8 Engine by David Hardcastle

There are numerous mentions in their to BL having to develop EFI systems to be able to pass smog and emmissions laws in both austrai and USA, Otherwise carbd V8s in the UK would have been with us for much longer, we benifitted from those emmission requiremets.

Carbs yep, agree, even the temp 4 barrel webber I have on the Eales at the mo due the the modified EFI system being a complete PITFA - Loom damaged (age hardened replaced with new), Jag injectors cracked - age and comping I should think, erm no mnot at £140 each, replaced good secondhand, Jag AFM misreading, er £500+ no thankyou replaced with another second hand one, lasted 2 months, and then the output side of the Adjustable Mark A / Eales ECU waggles its feet in the air ..............£1200 sir ?

Yep the hotwire is better, much much better, but its still old hat, the gems systems are ok, but you need serious knowledge and access to testbook.

Basically I am faced with alternatives.

Rebuild the Jag / Eales system - er no thanks got a queue of peole who will buy what I have tho

Hotwire it - yes, I have seriously considered that, but having lived with one for many many years on the old hybrid, I do know that deep wading with a HW AFM is a "Not the cleverest" of ideas, plus I would have to rechipp it via Mark for the 4.5 engine £££

DTA - Hmmm Lovely, but £3000 PLUS setting up er no thanks again.

The dizzy is not clever in deep water on a V8, MJ is absolutely superb, and the engone ran better than it ever did (ok so its a race negine and the dizzy was always a expertly bosdged unit) when I shoved that on.

At the mo I have a borrowed Weber 4 barrel, big, no HUGE 4 ports and eldenbroick manifold, but thios spits coughs and pops on inclines decents and slide slopes, so it temporary

Hotwire for the DIYer is prob the best options from all the Lucas BL range bvetter than Flapper, simpler and at least DIYable by someone at home Gems aint....

As to if HW is better than MS or any other programmable system then the answer is is simple terms 2NON" BUT is IS A RPITFA to fit and set up and do rather than a trip to Old sodbury a few quid and a few hours....

Your probably arguing against the sadest V8 Nut on this forum, .......

can we at least agree that Sqeezels are truly "Deep Fat Fryers" (yes I know you lot I know - and horribly reliable - but truly bland unless yer spend a fortune tunning it so why not have a proper injun anyway )

Nige

[Ally V8]

I didnt want to argue,just point out to frustrated carb users that there is a way out for them that is a world away from Strombergs.A couple of evenings reading to understand the basics of how it works and a couple of hundred quid and they are away.You wouldnt believe the number of customers who ask if their EFI system can be replaced with carbs.It is just that they think its all black magic and no one can fix it.You and I know this is not true,and there are options that dont need Testbook or similar.I'm just trying to get people to move on a bit,with the price of V8 stuff at the moment there has never been a better time.Mind you using Testbook on Gems and Motronic is one of the most interesting bits of my work - esp when tangled up with a badly fitted/adjusted LPG system.