First RTV with AWDC

[Mark Jenkins]

I'm planning to enter my first RTV at Halnaker on the 22nd of this month, all things being well.

I've got the rules in front of me,

see Link

just wanted to check a few things.

6.4a ENGINES

How do you fit the second throttle return spring? I have a 1989 DT 90 -is it an identical, second spring in addition to the one on the fuel pump? Is it straightforward to fit? Available from normal parts suppliers?

6.14 ELECTRICAL

a) My twin batteries are under the passenger seat, but there is no bracket holding them down - is one required or is the sealed compartment enough?

b ) I imagine should fit rubber covers over the terminals as mine are missing.

e) I'll mark my earth lead with yellow tape.

6.23 FIRE EXTINGUISHERS

I know I need to change my powder extinguisher to an AFFF and I'm about to order a 2litre one online.

Any thoughts, people?

Cheers

Mark

[Kev Baldwin]

The idea of a second spring is that should main throttle spring fail, the secondary spring will shut off the throttle. There is no 'off-the-shelf' spring. You need to find a spring (with a hook or a loop at either end) and attach it to the throttle lever on the pump. It doesn't matter where the other end of the spring goes providing it shuts off the throttle. You may have to make a bracket to attach the other end of the spring. Getting the right tension of spring can be pain. Any old spring may offer more tension than you want, meaning the throttle feel will be completely different than you're used to. This isn't what you want, especially in the cut-throat world of competition!

The tin lid for the std underseat battery tray does not create a sealed compartment. Whether sealed or not, you definitely want to secure the batteries unless you like living dangerously! You will fail scrutineering if they're not.

Good luck with your first RTV. No going back now...

[mmgemini]

The MSA do not demand two throttle springs. Most of this comes from journalists that don't bother to read things correctly.

You need a throttle return spring at the carb/pump arm. To shut the throttle if the linkage breaks. Yes you will need two or remove one on a series.

If you have a Webber carb. You need anpother return spring on the outside. The internal one will not do.

A company called Magguard [sp] used to make a super twin throttle cable and twin spring arrangement. It really looked good. It didn't comply with MSA regs though because the return spring wasn't on the last throttle arm.

Unless the AWDC have demaned one in a ASR. Sorry I can't open that link.

Could somebody give me both the AWDC and the MSA regs please.

Your batteries need to be held down with a clamp. They have to be secure.

Enjoy the day.

[jericho]

Batteries must be held down with a decent clamp.

No fire extinguisher required for awdc RTV trials,only required for CCV trials,but its a good idea anyway.

Bodge a spring on any old how - scrutineers realise a coil type deisel pump return spring is very unlikely to break,so wont be too particular,but it must be attatched to the final part of the linkage,i.e. the arm on the pump itself,to comply.

Have fun.

[Mark Jenkins]

Does any kind soul on here have a suitable sort of spring kicking around they'd be willing to pop in the post?

[mmgemini]

Does any kind soul on here have a suitable sort of spring kicking around they'd be willing to pop in the post?

Mark.

Please tell me who requires you to fit two springs. Certainly not the MSA. Although a lot of people think they do. You need one spring per throttle lever. I'll talk carbs cos it's easier.

One carb one spring. Except series unles you've modified it. Two springs on a twin carb. Four springs on a four carb.

Take a piece of knicker elastic and two safety pins. That is deemed to be a spring. or a laccy band.

[Steve Hiatt]

Mark.

Please tell me who requires you to fit two springs. Certainly not the MSA. Although a lot of people think they do. You need one spring per throttle lever. I'll talk carbs cos it's easier.

One carb one spring. Except series unles you've modified it. Two springs on a twin carb. Four springs on a four carb.

Take a piece of knicker elastic and two safety pins. That is deemed to be a spring. or a laccy band.

I seem to recall this regulation has been relaxed. When I first trialed they wanted two in addition to the built in springs. Unfortunately I don't think it pays to argue a point too strongly with a scrutineer, they will just find something else to pick on. A polite attitiude will usually ensure you receive advice on what they want done before the next trial.

[sheeppimp]

the first time i took my 200 tdi to an RTV i hadn't fitted a second spring and it passed ok with a "get one fitted before next time"

took a while to find a suitable spring but easy enough to fit, don't have the truck any more but i seem to recall that i had to drill a hole for one end and it took a fair old bit of trial and error to find one that closed the throttle but didn't make it feel really strange.

[simonr]

It's more than you need (if indeed you need it at all), but Screwfix sell nice assortments of expansion & compression springs. They have proven f^2 useful to me over the years!

Screwfix Spring Kit clicky

Si

[Mark Jenkins]

Thanks for all your comments, I have contacted AWDC about the springs but I reckon I will probably fit a second from stock at work just to be on the safe side. And tie my battery down with some metal strapping.

M.

[mmgemini]

There is another regulation from the MSA that nobody seems to bother with.

"All fuel,oil and water pipes passing through the passenger compartment must me either metal or covered in metal."

Mark. Check that ALL holes in the bulkhead are filled or covered.

Edited to add my name.....

mike

I can causae trouble in an empty house !!!

[Orgasmic Farmer]

Have failed scrutineering with 2 different drivers on throttle spring while on AWDC challenge series. First occaision we took a spring out of a mole grips and used that, second time it was a spring from the aftermarket bonnet clips. On both occaisions we subsequently passed scrutineering!!

[mmgemini]

Could I ask again please to see the regulations word for word because certainly the MSA does not demand two springs on one throttle lever.

mike

I can cause trouble in an empty house.

[101nut]

Could I ask again please to see the regulations word for word because certainly the MSA does not demand two springs on one throttle lever.

mike

I can cause trouble in an empty house.

I also believe this has been relaxed such that there only has to be a spring on the final linkage - an existing one will do. This rule probably originated with rod-type throttle actuators with the spring at the pedal end and numerous places to fail with the throttle left open ... been superceeded by modern technology 'the cable' or 'the wire'.

And as many people already know it makes sod all difference with a V8 when the link rod fails and jams into the manifold ... a hundred springs couldn't close the carb! Been there, rush hour, 2500 revs at idle as I hit the traffic queues!

AndyG

[Mark Jenkins]

Could I ask again please to see the regulations word for word because certainly the MSA does not demand two springs on one throttle lever.

mike

I can cause trouble in an empty house.

I don't know if this is word for word but try this link (should be to a PDF) as this is what I'd been idly reading... see what you make of it. No reply from AWDC as yet.

[mmgemini]

Mark for some reason that link won't work for me. I'll see if I can get it sorted tomorrow.

Incidently.

I see my 300Tdi already has two springs fitted.

One on the pump. The other the rubber spring gator on the throttle cable. AH !!! That second one won't work with a broken cable !!!!

mike

I can cause trouble in an empty house !!!

[101nut]

Exact wording of the AWDC link given says:

"6.4

(a) be equipped with a positive method of

throttle linkage closing in the event of linkage

failure by means of an additional external

spring to each throttle spindle."

So the inference is that if there are already three springs there must now be four!

However looking through the ALRC regs which were updated in November last year (see www.alrc.co.uk) there is no mention of throttle return springs any more (that I can see) so my previous post holds true as the ALRC regs were updated as a result of MSA regs changing ...

So for AWDC you need extra springs but for MSA/ALRC you don't ... probably

AndyG

[mmgemini]

Thanks AndyG. The only difference in the wording as I remember the MSA regs are the word "additional"

mike

I can cause trouble in an empty house !!!

[discoabuser]

This is what I am trying to get my head round,all the little things that nobody seems to be able to give a definate answer to.

The only thing I can find about the 'great throttle return spring debate' is in the ALRC green book 2007,in the scrutineering check section.It says 'Only early series vehicles did not have the return spring attached directly to carb butterfly spindle.So check that one is fitted.'

So reading that,only series 1's need the extra return spring.BUT I fitted one anyway to my 200TDi discovery,because I kept getting told I had to.Luckily it only cost a quid and took me ten minutes to fit.

[Mark Jenkins]

As a follow up to my original post, I did make it to my first RTV on 22nd April and had a brilliant time and drove all day. Thanks for all the advice from the forum.

I can confirm that the scrutineer was pleased to see that I had fitted an extra return spring, which was from a cheap set of mole grips.

This is what I am trying to get my head round,all the little things that nobody seems to be able to give a definate answer to.

The only thing I can find about the 'great throttle return spring debate' is in the ALRC green book 2007,in the scrutineering check section.It says 'Only early series vehicles did not have the return spring attached directly to carb butterfly spindle.So check that one is fitted.'

So reading that,only series 1's need the extra return spring.BUT I fitted one anyway to my 200TDi discovery,because I kept getting told I had to.Luckily it only cost a quid and took me ten minutes to fit.

[hedley]

This is what I am trying to get my head round,all the little things that nobody seems to be able to give a definate answer to.

The best person to ask is your (hopefully) freindly scrutineer as to how they interpret the rules.

As was mentioned already, the general rule for a first timer is they'll let you compete, but will give you a list of to-do's before the next event.

Whilst i was trialling and scruteneering up untill a year or so ago, myself and the other scrutineers were satisfied by 'an additional spring that, if all else failed, would shut the throttle off'

HTH

Hedley