SteveG Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 Is this what you meant when you said, imagine rubbery half shafts that can twist!! Lara posted a pic of his old Kam HD shafts over on Devon 4x4 Forum, after he is replacing them with his new and unique bling versions you can read about it here.. Devon 4x4 Forum Cheers Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark90 Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 Nice shafts, but the price!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro_Al Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 After all that expense and effort, they don't seem to be any larger diameter...? Most of the discussion seems based around the fact that they have had some blingy surface treatment - paint??? Maybe they've been micro-bead-blasted or whatever its caled to relieve internal stresses, but even so. Give me a few mm more diameter any day. Not as impressed as I thought I would be. How much? Al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 I think for well under 3k's not a bad price for what's on offer, having said that Im sticking with my spindley 48mm thick ones... ( they cost bugger all) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 After all that expense and effort, they don't seem to be any larger diameter...?Most of the discussion seems based around the fact that they have had some blingy surface treatment - paint??? Maybe they've been micro-bead-blasted or whatever its caled to relieve internal stresses, but even so. Give me a few mm more diameter any day. Not as impressed as I thought I would be. How much? Al. I think its called shot peening <sp?> They should be very nice shafts but Ashcrofts'll build you a set of shafts to order in the same material for about a third to half the price. They've done quite a few sets for racers but I don't think any for challenge trucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 Im still not convinced by Jack Mac. Ashcrofts aren't made from Hytuf Will, hence the price difference, Dave wont mind me saying that his halfshafts are in no way as durable as maxi's or Jack Macs, the peening is for stress relief, The prob (as I see it) in running Toy splines is that landy shafts are spaghetti thin, more splines is nice and Hytuff is lovely but you still can't get round the overall restriction in O/D because of the axle tube, The other drawback in running Toy spline pattern is that when you break one you are screwed, stuff a maxidrive with a landy spline count and you can always substitute a standard halfshaft, stuff a mac and wait, and wait, and wait. Another option to consider, surely its easier just to use different axles (starts to shout over cries of burn the monster) or hybrid the axles, you pays ya money, you takes ya choice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 Im still not convinced by Jack Mac.Ashcrofts aren't made from Hytuf Will, hence the price difference, Dave wont mind me saying that his halfshafts are in no way as durable as maxi's or Jack Macs, the peening is for stress relief, Sorry Jez, I wasn't refering to Hytuff as Ashcrofts don't use it however they'll make shafts for you out of Margaring which is even stronger than Hytuff. I'm also not convinced by Jack Mac. The only potential issue I'll soon have with my axles is crown wheels and if I have problems I may have to go down the route of using toyota diffs (but still using a 24 spline locker and rover shafts for the reasons you've stated). However I'd rather not do it as spares then become a problem... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 Wait till spring Will - Ive got just the toy for you in the diff department Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michele Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 they'll make shafts for you out of Margaring Margarin? Or Maraging? BTW Will,any new about those blingy CV from Ashcroft? I asked on the P44 BB but no reply...is it too much Top Secret yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troddenmasses Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 Most of the discussion seems based around the fact that they have had some blingy surface treatment [hard hat] K.L.E.E.N.T.E.C.T. perhaps? [/hard hat] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveG Posted October 11, 2005 Author Share Posted October 11, 2005 Margarin? Or Maraging? BTW Will,any new about those blingy CV from Ashcroft? I asked on the P44 BB but no reply...is it too much Top Secret yet? Can't be that top secret as they are mentioing them in their latest ads as under development. Using small ball bearings to increase thickness of outer ring. Will when you get a chance to post some more pics, can you post one of the pattern NAS/50th central housing you installed. I assume that you got this from Ashcrofts?? Also Will, why are you planning to increase performance of TGV 2.8i that much?? If it drives ok now, why potentially reduce reliability for some more bhp? If your answer is "because I can" that's a good answer Cheers Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 Can't be that top secret as they are mentioing them in their latest ads as under development. Using small ball bearings to increase thickness of outer ring.Will when you get a chance to post some more pics, can you post one of the pattern NAS/50th central housing you installed. I assume that you got this from Ashcrofts?? Also Will, why are you planning to increase performance of TGV 2.8i that much?? If it drives ok now, why potentially reduce reliability for some more bhp? If your answer is "because I can" that's a good answer Cheers Steve Umm, I'm not sure how common knowledge the CVs are supposed to be at the moment. They're certainly being developed but I think we won't hear much until they're being tested in vehicles. Steve, the cenrtre pannel is a pattern NAS one (from Frogs Island who, IIRC, have have them made specially). Its very smart but its a bit of an arse to fit, particularly the cubby box lid as this come in two peices, has to be bonded and then everything made up for the catch (mines a DII glove box one). The main reason for tuning the engine is because I like power. Its true that most of the time its fine but I have run out of power before. Also, I'm a bit curious about how much I'll be able to get as no one really seems to have tunes tgvs much yet. Reliabilty shouldn't be a huge problem as its a new engine and I won't ever do massive mileage in it. I guess the engine will never see 100,000 miles and if I have to rebuild it in 5 years or so I can live with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Marshall Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 Maybe they've been micro-bead-blasted or whatever its caled to relieve internal stresses, but even so. Give me a few mm more diameter any day. Al. Shot peening is not just a surface treatment and can add significantly to the cost of the component depending on the media used to blast the surface [steel, glass or ceramic media]. It is widely used for aerospace engine parts, and contributes markedly to fatigue resistance under dynamic loads - shot peening on ductile iron can double the fatigue life compared to a cast surfaces and increase by four times compared to machined surfaces. As any female will tell you, width isn't everything. The process affects fatigue life through a marked reduction in the density and length of surface micro-cracks which can extend under load causing fracture. It is well known that most fatigue failures and stress corrosion normally initiate at or near the surface when stressed under tension [clearly, half shafts face huge torsional stresses]. Cracks will not initiate or propogate so readily in a compressively stressed material. Forged components have a much more uniform grain flow [ie very significantly stronger to minimise torsional fatigue] than cast or machined metals but still benefit from shot peening; shafts should be machined from forged blanks - much much stronger than machined bar stock. Many forged gears are shot peened after machining - the micro dimples that are formed on the surface also act as minute oil resevoirs promoting better lubrication and reduced scoring [and noise] extend life by at least 50%. Point for debate - if you're buying extreme half shafts ask what lies under the red paint. Which steel, have they been properly hardened etc. However grand the make you buy, consider having them shot peened before you fit them, using special hardness gear shot if you can afford it. Plenty of suppliers in the West Midlands and Sheffield. Here's a couple of technical articles if you're interested - here and here and here. Might just help you win an event. Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharger Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 Silly and probably OT question but... why are they splined that far down? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Marshall Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 Silly and probably OT question but... why are they splined that far down? Same thought crossed my mind - must weaken the shaft under torsional load as well as adding to machining costs....initially they'll twist, rather than shear instantly, so you might finish an event, but they'll still snap. Neil Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roguevogue Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 Silly and probably OT question but... why are they splined that far down? It's because when it is fitted with the KAM locker the locking dog slides up and down the shaft. Some people have had trouble with the spline twisting with the locker engaged and then not being able to unlock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lara Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 Hi Guys, Nice to see you are all interested, May I just point out a few things that made me go this route that some of you have missed. A. I have gone up in diameter, as the pics on D44 forum will show, my shafts are now 1.3" in dia, B. I can not run other axles as the regs here in Belgium will not allow it and I fail the MOT. C. I used KAM driveshafts after snapping a halfshaft within 2 minutes every time I drove off road. D. I snapped a KAM driveshaft every day I drove off road, Stub shafts were the strongest then I started breaking inner and rear shafts. E. Materials can make a massive difference in strength to a shaft (or anything) and just because it looks the same it doesn't mean it is! Heat treatment also makes a MASSIVE difference to the properties of steels. F. There are a lot of good shafts available on the open market but after having the trouble that I have I was not prepared to risk any more "stories" of other peoples unbreakable shafts, I have a true 360ft/lbs of torque and an auto box, this is quite a bit but nothing outrageous, other people quote more and have no problems with shafts. Either I have a problem with my driveline or someone is grossly over estimating their power outputs? G. The strongest material available for the purpose of driveshafts is "Maraging 300" (S162) it costs in stock form 1500 pounds for the length needed to make 4 landrover shafts, add onto that the special Ageing process needed to harden them when finished and shot peening as you have noticed, and then add the machining costs and you have very expensive shafts, But the best available. H. Maraging 300 is roughly 30% stronger in its finished form than HYTUF, (Maxidrive shafts are HYTUF) I am not knocking HYTUF but on my rig I want the best regardless of cost. I. I have spoken to Dave at Ashcrofts and he tells me that in the past he also has made shafts in Maraging 300, however my shafts are different to Ashcroft shafts as my CVs are also larger. He told me after I had ordered my shafts anyway. (he also said that they were terribly expensive) J. Via internal contacts at one of the top F1 teams I was also privy to their top-secret heat treatment process that they had developed for their Maraging 300 driveshafts, this should also make sure that my expensive material is used to the best of its ability. (But it all costs in some little way) K. The long spline is as stated before to enable KAM to use their own lockers, they have actually made this shorter on their latest shafts and I have not only done away with the long spline but also had the shafts re-designed by said F1 guys on their FEA software. Hopefully all I will ever need to change now are the standard (heavy fused) KAM front outer shafts, these take 5 minutes to change. HOPEFULY Lara. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest diesel_jim Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 Margarin? Or Maraging? Margarine? hat/coat/slam...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lara Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 Margarine? hat/coat/slam...... Now that is a good idea Jim, Who has ever heard of Margarine Snapping? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Marshall Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 I have not only done away with the long spline but also had the shafts re-designed by said F1 guys on their FEA software. Lara. Lara Did the FEA simulation produce a shaft with more metal along most of the length [eg corrugations] or was the outcome a shaft with extra thickness only around the point of predicted twist? [eg a shoulder at the middle]. Presumably splines are crowned? Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lara Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 Hi Neil, I did not see the analysis my self but am told (and can see by the fished shafts) that there are bigger radii in some areas, the splines have been finished differently, the core shaft is no thicker than spline cores to move stress away from spline routes which is an obvious stress raiser. And other subtle points. Was told by FAE guys that if these break then I had better buy a Tank Lara. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 Julian, I don't think you'll break you're shafts now; it'll be CVs (even with you're fulible stubs) or crownwheels next I think you're right about some peoples power claims, if its not been run on a rolling road how can you tell what you've reeally got??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lara Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 Julian, I don't think you'll break you're shafts now; it'll be CVs (even with you're fulible stubs) or crownwheels next I think you're right about some peoples power claims, if its not been run on a rolling road how can you tell what you've reeally got??? Hi Will, Power guessing is easy, My car is faster than my mates car and he has a K&N filter and a twirly inlet thingy and his mate in the pub tells him he has 300hp so I must have 350 ! Easy realy (I love that smiley cos I look like it most of the time) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 Hi Will,Power guessing is easy, My car is faster than my mates car and he has a K&N filter and a twirly inlet thingy and his mate in the pub tells him he has 300hp so I must have 350 ! Easy realy (I love that smiley cos I look like it most of the time) ROFL, very true! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 Was there any mention of rifle boring the halfshafts? I know the septics quite like this one as the arguement centres on stress propagation being surface area related, bore it = more surface area Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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