Ending Td5 ?

[houblebouble]

Hi ! At the last item of LRE I read about finishing the productionline of Td5 engines with the end of this year !

So unfortunately this means also the end of 100% Land Rover produced cars - never happened over 57 years ..... ! Can´t believe this - does anybody knows about the time of the planned swap to the Ford engine .....?

houblebouble

[landi41]

Hi ! At the last item of LRE I read about finishing the productionline of Td5 engines with the end of this year !

So unfortunately this means also the end of 100% Land Rover produced cars - never happened over 57 years ..... ! Can´t believe this - does anybody knows about the time of the planned swap to the Ford engine .....?

houblebouble

Not sure on the engine change timing to Fords.............. but it could only be a good thing :)

[Neil Marshall]

Not sure on the engine change timing to Fords.............. but it could only be a good thing :)

PSA and Ford have invested massively in a new 2.2 litre common rail diesel engine which comes on stream at Dagenham this month. Ford will produce the version optimised for durability and ruggedness for the Ford Transit and Peugeot Citroën's new light commercials; PSA will build from January the high output version for both companies' large and executive cars.

This should be a strong and well developed unit and the better for being part of a hugely bigger production run - 200,000 a year by Ford alone. Expect loads more electronics - the engine will 'self adjust' for maximum efficiency over its working life. The previous phase of this joint co-operation, led by Ford, produced the high output V6 six-cylinder 24-valve unit used in the RR Sport, Disco 3, the Jaguar XJ and S-Type, the Peugeot 607 and 407 coupe, and the Citroen C6. TD5 production stopped in June and the engine line has, of course, been up for sale for months - bids had to be in by the end of September IIRC.

Neil

[landi41]

A 2.2 ltr diesel would be a hard sell in North America........... I mean this is the land of cubic inches

A small NA diesel is over 6 ltrs...............

[Neil Marshall]

A 2.2 ltr diesel would be a hard sell in North America

Dave, This engine is strictly for Europe but the performance and fuel economy will surprise.

The Ford/PSA LCV 2.2-liter diesel engine is 2,198cc in displacement, dual overhead camshaft (DOHC), four cylinders in-line with four valves per cylinder head (16 valves in total) and high grade aluminium alloy cylinder heads with an iron cylinder block. The engine will be offered in five configurations: 84 hp (63 kW) (torque: 250Nm); 99 hp (74 kW) (torque: 250Nm); 108 hp (81 kW) (torque: 285Nm); 118 hp (88 kW) (torque: 320Nm); and 128 hp (96 kW) (torque: 310Nm).

The new engine employs the latest generation common-rail direct injection system, which has ensured the engine family meets Euro 4 compliance and further improves reliability. The fuel injection system has an innovative pilot learning process which guarantees that the small pilot injection quantity, so critical to low noise and emissions on modern high pressure common-rail engines, is delivered accurately across all cylinders for the life of the vehicle. This level of control is achieved by periodically injecting five discrete injection events per cycle instead of the normal pilot and main injections. The engine management system then compares the engine operation and will fractionally adjust the pilot quantity to minimise noise and emissions.

The high pressure fuel injection system used ensures fuel is available at high pressure at each cylinder injection point. At critical points of the engine stroke, the electronic control of the injector valves allows very fine jets of fuel to be sprayed into the combustion chamber. This makes the combustion process clean and efficient, thus lowering emissions, improving fuel economy and increasing torque on each firing of the cylinder.

Another feature which helps reduce NOx emissions is a high-flow, electronically controlled EGR system which reduces combustion temperatures, and is mapped to the operating conditions of the engine and cooled by a water-based heat exchanger. The electronic system allows better controllability, lower and more consistent emissions, and complete elimination of black smoke. The e-EGR incorporates an anti-contamination system, which uses smart electronics to monitor the engine’s efficiency and to correct itself when necessary. The e-EGR can carry out this process regardless of the driving cycle of the vehicle, and ensures robustness regardless of how the vehicle is used.

For power improvement, the entry- and mid-level engines use a fixed geometry turbocharger, while the higher powered engines rely on a variable geometry turbo. The variable geometry system offers greater torque at lower speeds, while the turbo adapts to the needs and driving characteristics of the driver. This is achieved by the electronic control of the vane angles of the turbocharger, as it allows accurate control of boost pressure over a wider operating range. The electric control ensures greater responsiveness and improved and more accurate boost control than before.

The medium- and high-power engines employ gallery-cooled pistons to cope with the higher power density. The new 2.2-liter LCV engine meets Euro 4 emissions requirements (mandatory for light trucks in 2006). It produces just half the amount of NOx emissions compared with the engine from which it was developed, reduces CO2 emissions by 20% and PM emissions by 40%.

So, pretty clever then.

Neil

[jules]

You've got to hand it to them Ford make good engines

[LR90]

You've got to hand it to them Ford make good engines

And with the volume there should be a good aftermarket supply of s/h units that could be retro fitted to older landies. Seems good to me.

[landi41]

And with the volume there should be a good aftermarket supply of s/h units that could be retro fitted to older landies. Seems good to me.

And you will need all the room in the back to fit the "black boxes" that run it

[BogMonster]

The new engine employs the latest generation common-rail direct injection system, which has ensured the engine family meets Euro 4 compliance and further improves reliability. The fuel injection system has an innovative pilot learning process which guarantees that the small pilot injection quantity, so critical to low noise and emissions on modern high pressure common-rail engines, is delivered accurately across all cylinders for the life of the vehicle. This level of control is achieved by periodically injecting five discrete injection events per cycle instead of the normal pilot and main injections. The engine management system then compares the engine operation and will fractionally adjust the pilot quantity to minimise noise and emissions.

In other words LR are intending to counter criticisms that the Td5 is too F***ing complicated by introducing an engine that is even more F****ing complicated...

Fine on a Western European motorway, don't think I will be buying one for here thanks.

And the "lots of power out of a little engine" argument only works on paper ... look at the Td4 which in theory matches a 300Tdi for power/torque. Put one in a 130 and try towing with it and I should imagine it would be a different story, since I recall my Td4 Freelander being irritating in all conditions at low revs. No good for an off road vehicle IMHO

[Neil Marshall]

In other words LR are intending to counter criticisms that the Td5 is too F***ing complicated by introducing an engine that is even more F****ing complicated...

Fine on a Western European motorway, don't think I will be buying one for here thanks.

And the "lots of power out of a little engine" argument only works on paper ... look at the Td4 which in theory matches a 300Tdi for power/torque. Put one in a 130 and try towing with it and I should imagine it would be a different story, since I recall my Td4 Freelander being irritating in all conditions at low revs. No good for an off road vehicle IMHO

The electronics worry me too, but I guess there'd be all those Ford, Peugeot, Jaguar and Citroen dealers who could try and fix a fault!

Difficult to work out where the max torque occurs on the new engine, and that's at the heart of what you say about the Td4 - looking at the figures for the 128 bhp engine it could be anywhere from 1600 to 2500 revs....a bit of a wide range. What you need is low down grunt.

Neil

Neil

[landi41]

Jeeze boys i hate to say it but hey!

The American "Hot Rodders" figured this out years ago.......

cubic inches or cubic centimeters = power (in simple terms)

Along with the TD5, this new engine should further endear the brand to 3rd world Country users

[GBMUD]

I thought I had heard about a 2.7l Duratorq engine being developed - did I read that here or was it wishful thinking? I know that the 2.0l and 2.4l are great engines, but, in the Transit a 2.4 makes 137PS (Is that similar to BHP?) and 375NM of Torque (276.6lbf/ft) - A good figure but I worry that it is a lot for an engine of that size to produce, could it be over straining it? Remember the tales of potentialy reduced life-expectancy in over-tuned Tdis? Perhaps it is the complex electronics that allow these outputs in safety. A Td5 makes 135 BHP IIRC, so there is not a huge gain there, not sure what the Td5 torque output is.

Are electronics really such a bad thing? Are Td5s forever breaking down with electrical failure? I know the flywheels explode and that there have been problems with injectors/high pressure fuel pumps but I have to say in truth that I have not heard of serious ECU trouble. I tell a lie, Chelsea Tractor (remember him?) did have some trouble with some electrical connectors under his seat getting waterlogged after wading in 4ft of muddy water (highly conductive muddy water, ask SimonR!). Has anyone heard any tales of real electrical problems? I know MartinL(?) had trouble connecting a Disco ECU to a Defender Td5 in an older 90 but that doesn't count. I have read on here (and the other place) lots of bad things about Tdis breaking down... and about how V8s stop if there is rain forecast. One thing though, if I was traveling in the Amazon, Sahara etc., and had to mend a breakdown I would prefer to do it on an older engine. Living in the UK and prefering to retire to home in the event of a serious breakdown I would be fine with reliable electronic control. Perhaps we should be starting to carry a laptop as part of our breakdown kit on expeditions?

Sorry, that started to sound like a bit of a rant didn't it? I am genuinly interested to hear about poor Td5 reliability and I would very much like to replace my Tdi Defender with a 6 month old Duratorq powered one - six months to allow for teething troubles to be ironed out - in mid 2006.

Chris

[JimAttrill]

I live within 1km of Waterford Land Rover, voted the best dealer in South Africa. I wouldn't ask them to fix my bicycle after some of the stories I have heard. And they are good compared to the rest.

Remember, that in the 3rd world (which we are here in most respects) the standard of mechanical knowledge amongst those who try to service vehicles is low. Most people of any intelligence at all head for the white-collar jobs. There is nothing in the way of apprenticeships (as I served) and day-release is unheard of in car workshops. About the only place that has decent standards is South African Airways, because they have to. Getting anything that goes wrong fixed here is a nightmare. The average LR mechanic breaks more than he fixes. I know about these things because I came to this country as an 'artisan'. I worked on light aircraft for 4 weeks before giving it up. I couldn't work in the slapdash manner required. I never fly in light aircraft here.

So, if your vehicle breaks it can be a terrible experience trying to get it fixed. Even T@ymota have their problems: there is a documented case of a top-of-the-range Canned Loser with auto box where none of the dealers could get it to select a gear at all! Eventually they offered him a new car.

So, it all comes down to quality control. That is, your vehicle is complicated. If it breaks down the chances are that nobody can fix it. So buy a vehicle that doesn't break down in the first place. If it does break down, your only chance is to replace major components. Don't let them try to fix them.

Or have a V8 or a tdi that a decent mechanic can fix. Not a computer in sight, but you can at least get Bosch mechanical pumps and injectors overhauled and fixed here.

Why do you think there is a lively trade here (not by LR) of fitting coil springs to Range Rovers?

[Neil Marshall]

Remember, that in the 3rd world (which we are here in most respects) the standard of mechanical knowledge amongst those who try to service vehicles is low.

Jim, I understand precisely what you're saying - hence the huge difference in sophistication between a Toyota Ute and a Land Cruiser. Unfortunately Ford doesn't have the same emotional and financial bonds with emerging and third world economies that Land Rover used to have and Toyota still does have, so I can't see them drawing the bar at today's technology, let alone turning back the clock. I'd really like to know whether Ford has accepted that it's going to be locked out of the future miltary market or whether it's planning an assault with a completely new model - the military would have similar issues over complex electronics.

I thought I had heard about a 2.7l Duratorq engine being developed - did I read that here or was it wishful thinking?

Chris, that was my understanding too until Ford and PSA announced ten days ago that they had started production of the new Transit engine at Dagenham...so it might have been a case of mis-information ahead of the big announcement.

Here's some more about this new engine - full Ford-PSA press pack here. These images might take a while to download if you're on dial-up, but they're worth the wait.

Compared with the unit that provided the base architecture for the new engine, a 12kg reduction of weight has been achieved, thanks to an optimised block structure and the use of the latest finite element computer analysis. This also allows for better noise performance. The fuel injector pump now runs directly on the camshaft rather than off the engine block itself, which contributes another significant weight loss. The camshaft is also driven by a simplex chain that is light and is quiet.

Weight reduction has also been achieved by the use of a lighter front end accessory drive, which powers the alternator, power steering pump, vacuum pump, water pump and air conditioning compressor. This weight loss delivers driveability and fuel economy advantages for the commercial vehicle customer, especially with a lightly loaded vehicle, and there are is also an increase in payload capacity for the driver with a regularly heavily laden vehicle.

Uniquely for a commercial vehicle engine programme, the development of these engines used 100,000 hours and 4.9 million kilometres of 'real world' data taken from customers' vehicles around Europe using data loggers (similar to 'black box' flight recorders). These were installed in vehicles for between six to twelve months. The data collection monitored key parameters such as engine and vehicle speed, fuelling, throttle position, EGR Valve performance, among others.

The new electronic EGR is pictured below. Will we all be blanking these off still? What on earth will we do on a weekend?

Neil

[GBMUD]

Shame, a 2.7l 6cyl. could have been just what the doctor ordered for the Defender. Never mind, with so many of these engines around there is bound to be loads of people offering "chips" for them.

Chris

[SteveG]

Got to agree with you there about ECU's Chris. Also look at the amount of RR V8's running ok with elctronics.

I also have direct experience of off-roading for 3 1/2 years a RR with more computers than the Apollo spacecraft (according to BMW anyway) and never had an issue.

TDI's seem to have plenty of engine issues that are not fixable in the field. Why is this different from an ecu going belly up? Which also as Chris says - how often does that happen.

Cheers

Steve

[GBMUD]

Nice for somone to agree with me. Shouldn't you update your sig. now Steve?

Chris

[Neil Marshall]

I also have direct experience of off-roading for 3 1/2 years a RR with more computers than the Apollo spacecraft (according to BMW anyway) Steve

The Space Shuttle was launched with less onboard computing power than a Sinclair ZX80, and they froze the design [they now work off laptops, haven't you noticed?] so the Apollo spacecraft probably had zilch....naughty BMW for misleading you like that!

I'm not against advanced electronics....it's just they have to be sat in the right place, and with bomb-proof connectors.....oh, and with memories of a big bill to replace my Spider, the bits they wire them to have to be robust as well.

Neil

[SteveG]

Nice for somone to agree with me. Shouldn't you update your sig. now Steve?

Chris

Well reminded, also name change was well timed too

Steve

[white90]

Neil a bit more reasearch next time please

taken from the page below on a google search:

It is true that by today's standards the computer system used on Apollo would be thought of as very basic. The misconception, however, is that too much emphasis is placed on the role of the computer in the missions. The onboard computer was only used for one purpose: guidance. A task for which it was perfectly adequate.

from a quick google search

[Neil Marshall]

Neil a bit more reasearch next time please

It is true that by today's standards the computer system used on Apollo would be thought of as very basic. The misconception, however, is that too much emphasis is placed on the role of the computer in the missions. The onboard computer was only used for one purpose: guidance. A task for which it was perfectly adequate.

from a quick google search

You obviously don't believe me - there is almost no native computing power on the Shuttle, and Apollo had frighteningly little onboard capability [30Kb of memory from one computer], relying instead on the amazing skill of the test pilots flying them, rather than automation. The clever calculations were made at Houston, then relayed by radio link.

Neil

[white90]

In all honesty I'm not bothered really

just replying for something to do.

this bit is intresting though

"The onboard computer was only used for one purpose: guidance. A task for which it was perfectly adequate"

[Neil Marshall]

also have direct experience of off-roading for 3 1/2 years a RR with more computers than the Apollo spacecraft (according to BMW anyway) and never had an issue.

Well, BMW did mislead you - one computer that couldn't run a watch - but the point about purpose is well made.....vehicle manufacturers are getting too clever for their own boots, and we'll pick up the tab. And, yes, I'm only making conversation too on a dull Sunday evening! Have a great evening!!

Neil

[SteveG]

Sorry guys, the comment was only made in jest, as it was actually for a 7 series ad at the time.

Cheers

Steve

[Neil Marshall]

Sorry guys, the comment was only made in jest, as it was actually for a 7 series ad at the time.

Thanks Steve - I was probably in pedantic mode. Tony's point about being appropriate for the purpose is a good one and links well with the point Jim was making...are we about to see the next variant of Defender too sophisticated for parts of its market?

Neil