Discussion Topic again

[TJ101]

Looking very good Lard, Nice

[Milemarker Type S]

Now that is an unfair rule , Especialy on a smaller event , If a standard vehicle gets in the way , then just move onto another section , after all they have paid the same to enter .

I am with Ciderman on this one- I run in standard class and have only been 'competing' for about 12 months. Yes I am slow (very ) but yes I have also paid to be there. I personally try to do all that I can to stay out of the way of the better or faster trucks and crews- regardless of what class they are in- but to say that they must do this is a bit of a p***take. Am I supposed to wait until every other truck on a challenge has done a punch before I have a go?

I also think that to lump traybacks without other mods, such as lockers and extra winches, in with higher classes is also unfair- If I add body sliders or indeed a cage to my hardtop 90 do I move to a different class? Also someone with a hard top 90 that doesn't care about how much damage they sustain will be able to do exactly the same and go to the same places as a trayback...

I would suggest that there is nothing wrong with the existing classes- to try to be too specific about what mods do and don't fit certain classes appears to be somewhat painful and pointless.

Shrek

[white90]

RE :Also someone with a hard top 90 that doesn't care about how much damage they sustain will be able to do exactly the same and go to the same places as a trayback...

that is not entirely the case you'll come to see when you try to get your H/T under/around leaning trees.

My Hard Top started life very straight and I do care about damaging it but denting it is also sometime unavoidable if I want to compete.

I'm not precious about it but in the same vein it does not get bashed up for the sake of it either.

and if I were you I'd get some decent tree sliders now OEC do them and they'll save you doors from lots of damage.

[ciderman]

Who's been an bought all the tyre black

No , thats not tyre black , It was swear filter is there for a reason down with rain .

Although it wouldnt suprise me if Lardy did colour his tyres in .

Or Was that Richard?? Mmm I cant remember.

[D9OSV]

I am Trying hard to stay away from this for obvious reasons............

However, i tend to agree with Steve and Ciderman.

The class system at present works, Although again i am not a fan of the AWDC class for none road going vehicles, i personally feel vehicles should be registered for the road.

Before people start jumping up and down saying "But your vehicle is not really road legal" We all bend the rules as much as possible to gain as much as advantage as possible.

As the sport progesses cars will change, 10 years ago at the Bulldog the most aggressive truck had mud terrians and a low line winch, Wow scarey

Perhaps classes will need to change in the near future, but not quite yet.

Ih ave found it refreshing to see that most organisers now are using my favored soultion to competition, which is make the route to the punch techincal and the punch average thus not body damaging.

Two years ago my mate Simon Madgwick destroyed a very good 90 competeing in the AWDC series, however i believe that if he competed today he would do less damage as the layout has changed.

Going to events and seeing people with front wings completely missing was common place, but now almost unseen.

yes lots are using toughened wings, but not enough to see away with the damage we used to see.

So to summise, kepp things as they are for present and if things change or an obvoius void appears then deal with it, until then let thngs find there own level.

Jim

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Oooooooooooooo Big Tin of worms !

Having had some experience in event running (and listening to some whinging and whineing )

I feel I can offer some input from both sides.

No classes - shove everyone in the same pot

As many have said, ....

ok if you are running a club event with similar 4x4s,..... but if you have a wide range of entrnats then not so good.

• It can put off newbies
  
• Can put of "Daily Drivers"
  
• Can also put off higher spec trucks - too soft an event
  
• A good driver in a low spec 4x4 will be heavily disadvantaged
  

Classes - the Pros

• Get it right and everyone is happy but
  
• you'll never get it 100% right someone somewhere won't be happy
  
• IMHO you need classes of some sort if all 4x4s entering are diverse
  
• Gives a chance for many based on spec and skills, .........should be fair......
  

Classes the Cons

• too many classes make for a shambles
  
• bit like the 'PC' Schools where they don't give 1st 2nd 3rd prizes .......so nobody 'loses' (FFS)
  
• Extra Costs of trophies and planning and logistics
  
• Too many classes means you may not have enough entrnats in each class
  
• Some "pot hunters" will build 4x4s to work around the rules, they are legal 'rule wise' but not in the spirit of the rules, (you'll always find these guys in sport...)
  
• Many organizers suddenly make / change rules and classes where the didn't exist and then entrants find their 4x4 falls foul - that gives loads the hump - and I would say rightly so....they refuse to change the 4x4 as who knows whats next rule wise
  

I think an easier route, (where most will agree that if you do have a range of 4x4s and therefore classes needed)

.... then the following is a sensible general acceptable 'guide'.

• Minimal classes
  
• Simple minimal rules that makes sense
  

Class changes should be fairly "major" differentiators - ie what most would all say "Yep fair" to

ie - most would agree : ? for example :

• Lockers / Traction control etc are a big advantage over open axles
  
• Portals over std axles
  
• 36+ tyres over 205s
  
• Trayback / Spaceframe over "Daily Driver"
  
• 2 winches over 1 winch
  
• MOT Taxed Daily Driver vs Special challenge 4x4 (seriously abused at the mo )
  

On this basis Neils AWDC 4 classes looks pretty close to all of the above, poss portals from memory could be argued as not allowed for maybe enough, but a good solid sensible logical class system.

I looked at the Howling Wolf event and thought,.... hmmm.... fancy that, ....but what class am I in then ?

I looked and saw Class 2, seems fair, sensible and about right, so I entered.

With no classes I wouldn't have entered.

I don't expect my truck to have a "perfect" fit in any class system but neither am I going to change my tyres to a std tyre just so I can enter, frankly there are other events that would then get my attention....

Lastly, the more "High Level" the event the more the class system needs to be seen and accepted as fair by all who are entering - again I would say Neil has a damned good template that many other organisiers could do worse than to follow.

A sort of "Sport std" can help, ..........but it can be a double edged sword..

Right, thats my 3p worth

Nige

[Top90]

Although it wouldnt suprise me if Lardy did colour his tyres in .

Or Was that Richard?? Mmm I cant remember.

I'll never live that down will I ?

Richard

[jules]

Now that is an unfair rule , Especialy on a smaller event , If a standard vehicle gets in the way , then just move onto another section , after all they have paid the same to enter .

Hang on

I worded that badly

I'll try again

The top group of truck were not allowed to go for set number punches untill a surtan time of day to prevent a clash of locked truck and non locked trucks on say a axle twister punch which would take 20mins of winching for a non lockerd truck and only a few seconds for one with lockers to complete. (one example)

That would prevent the more expiranced getting wound up waiting for the standard truck to get out of the way.

What would happen if next season the nubers went from say 40 truck this year to 140 next year, would classes not be a better way of splitting things up to make life bearable for the organisers and marshalls.

Thats what happend to the BORC a few years back and the classes and seeding were the main way they managed the numbers all competing together.

(I think a few sites would struggle with that number but its more of what if)

[bush doctor]

I'm thinking it maybe time to have more of a class structure and had some thoughts(my own that's all)

say

Standard includes one winch/rollcage

Standard +1 as above but plus another winch or one diff lock of some sort

Modified as above but add another locker so 2 winches and two lockers/portal axles

Unlimited these are the tray backs-buggy style vehicles as these are far easier to avoid

damaging bodywork being as most of it has been removed, anything with a percentage

of original body work removed (so bobtails are not included), tyre size no limit but no dumper type tyres to avoid ground damage

All vehicles should have Tax/Mot though to allow road sections.

thoughts opinions anyone?

What a great idea Tony we could have a class for different coloured cars as well.

Infact I thought your idea was so good and it should be introduced to the whole world of motorsport. So this morning I spoke to the FIA and got them to agree to an MPV class in next years F1 season so I will be entering in the wifes Seat Alhambra.

[white90]

Sean you really need to read the whole thread rather than quote the first post, as my

opinion changed to three classes or it reads a tad odd to refer to the first post rather than the latter one.

As the saying goes "everyones a critic"

still all events could end up with 30 tray backs charging around and no new comers joining in

and ban tyres over 35" and or hydro steering

now that would be forward thinking.. Not

No new suggestions/Ideas

at least the AWDC events have taen a stand and introduced a class for unlimited vehicles.

[Guest WALFY]

If you take your original thread literaly Tony, you say tat trayback is unlimited because it's easier to move around/under obstacles so it has an advantage. So to that end would you put a small Suzuki in the same class as that is small enough to go round/under obstacles that a standard 90 won't.

Or do you want all the traybacks out of modified so you can collect more trophys :D

[white90]

Are people mad or on a wind up?

or can't read?

I'd enter the unlimited class personally.

Trophy hunting isn't my idea for fun.

getting out and having a good time tying is.

I thought the thread may encourage some debate/new ideas instead it has had the opposite effect.

[Guest WALFY]

Tony

Change is a strange beast. People have their own comfort zones. To get people outside of their zone is quite hard. Sometimes there is a need or change and there are times when change is not good. And changing things for the sake of it will only be detrimental to the sport.

At the end of the day we all enter and hope that we will do well. Anyone that says they don't care is either lying or has no passion in what they are doing. With me I have stepped down a class when I compete now. I find that I enjoy it a lot more and am learning lot more about the car my driver and myself. And I don't have to wash it at the end of the event. But I stilll don't win, I just try a bit harder each time I go out and give it my best shot.

[white90]

Good point Mark and well put

I think I understand the responses more after reading that.

[bishbosh]

At the end of the day we all enter and hope that we will do well.

Agreed.

Anyone that says they don't care is either lying or has no passion in what they are doing.

Disagree entirely with that Mark - whilst I may be pleased if I do do well, I really couldn't give a damn if I don't, just so long as I have enjoyed myself. Contrary to popular belief, it is not necessary to win or even finish to have enjoyed yourself.

[Guest WALFY]

Bish

I never mentioned winning. It is down to self betterment(is there such a word). IE last time I competed I only came 4/5/6 etc. This time I want to do better 3/4/5 position. Or last time I competed I was b*tching and by 11am I was b*lloxed, this time I want to get to at least 12 before I feel like that.

Everyone has a competetive streak in them to a certain extent or we wouldn't be doing this sport, it's just how that feeling manifests itself in us.

For me the social side of it is as important as the competition, cos to be fair I'm fairly pants at it but to come along and see you lot makes the day worth while. A bit easier now as I live in Wiltshire and not Kent as I did before.

It's not winning but taking part that counts. (for some)

[alan kemp]

When I started 2 years ago, taking part was all that counted, infact just offroading at playdays was enough for me. Once you start to compete though and team work is sorted (nearly there), you begin to creep up the results table. Once I realised we could get in the top 5 provided the car stayed together, a new buzz became apparent. When competeing, we just get on with it and hope that everybody else has the same problems as we do. Competing is still the most important part but being in with a chance gives an extra spark, extra impetus and drive to get the car ready for the next event.

As for classes, Niel has it just right. The more I think about it, a portalled, multiwinched hydro steered vehicle should be in class 1. Now there are quite a few new cars entering, I cant wait to take them on.

[seabo]

I agree that it is about competing and getting better as a driver/team and improving the vehicle (as budgets allow - we can't all send a blank chq to SR!!)

I saw Alan Kemps 90 at Cowm last November (Alan - I was the one with the hyrdrolocked green Discovery, scary cold wife and noisy cold kids!)

Having only green laned to that point I decided I wanted more and got a V8 disco (daily driver) and began trialling as well - a little bit Torville and Dean at first but with a few tweaks getting better at each event.

Always being interested in doing trials so went to watch the Euro Challenge at Kirton - loved it.

Now have a disco 200 which I am gradually bob nosing/bobtailing (pick up not tray back) building cage etc etc.

No way I'll have the funds to get "winched up" or "locker up" for 2008 but as soon as I do I want to compete!!

ANY CLASS WILL DO!!!!

Coming last is fine - so long as at the end I am knackered and smiling and have spent a day or two in good company

[alan kemp]

I agree that it is about competing and getting better as a driver/team and improving the vehicle (as budgets allow - we can't all send a blank chq to SR!!)

I saw Alan Kemps 90 at Cowm last November (Alan - I was the one with the hyrdrolocked green Discovery, scary cold wife and noisy cold kids!)

Having only green laned to that point I decided I wanted more and got a V8 disco (daily driver) and began trialling as well - a little bit Torville and Dean at first but with a few tweaks getting better at each event.

Always being interested in doing trials so went to watch the Euro Challenge at Kirton - loved it.

Now have a disco 200 which I am gradually bob nosing/bobtailing (pick up not tray back) building cage etc etc.

No way I'll have the funds to get "winched up" or "locker up" for 2008 but as soon as I do I want to compete!!

ANY CLASS WILL DO!!!!

Coming last is fine - so long as at the end I am knackered and smiling and have spent a day or two in good company

Spot on, I think our attitude and approach to off roading has to evolve just as much as the cars evolve.

I started playing with my Disco but soon learned that the overhangs were a major handicap and the damage risk was too much for my daily drive. I was into driving over the biggest rocks I could find in thosa days so went out and bought the cheapest 90 I could find on eblag.

Your wife was very understanding considering what you did to the car. Apart from the cold, I am sure they all enjoyed the day.

I must say that my ex wife had absolutely no interest what so ever. Both my sons 17 and 18 have no interest apart from the car is "phat". My 5 year old son loves it but is not allowed to play as his 3 year old sister would scream the house down if I left without her. Two child seats for some gentle off roading is an option but mummy would not be keen.

My GF is very keen and takes an active interest (but is no biatch).