Fussy TD5 Motors

[Chriso]

Dear Forum Members,

I belong to a mountain rescue team in North Wales that owns two 130" station wagon ambulances. The vehicles have been specially prepared to carry hill troops and a casualty on a full length stretcher in the rear compartment.

The problem with these TD5s is that they are an absolute liability when pulling away from a standstill. Turning right across junctions can be lethal! The engines are very unforgiving and will stall very easily.

I did read somewhere the the Land Rover Experience instructors had dubbed this (ironically) as an anti-stall feature so long as the driver keeps their right foot away from the accelerator when engaging the clutch. The ECU will attempt to maintain a constant tick over speed by introducing more fuel. My feeling is that this is "spin" to hide an engineering short coming.

I appreciate that these engines are working much harder than in say a 90, but I do feel that they are inadquate. Can anything be done with the ECU mapping? I guess that someone, perhaps Porny may have the answer?

Thanks very much

Chris.

[GBMUD]

Not had any trouble with my Td5 110 - even towing trailers and having larger tyres fitted (higher gearing). There is an anti-stall mechanism fitted and it is quite true that touching the throttle cancels it. Try pulling away up hill with no throttle at all. Do you find it worse in low range? My 110 is dreadful in low range as the throttle map only allows the power to ramp up very slowly once you hit the throttle. Therefore you cancel the anti-stall by accelerating but the ECU only applies extra power very slowly and you stall it - at least, I do!

Chris

[Projectblue]

Dear Forum Members,

I belong to a mountain rescue team in North Wales that owns two 130" station wagon ambulances. The vehicles have been specially prepared to carry hill troops and a casualty on a full length stretcher in the rear compartment.

The problem with these TD5s is that they are an absolute liability when pulling away from a standstill. Turning right across junctions can be lethal! The engines are very unforgiving and will stall very easily.

I did read somewhere the the Land Rover Experience instructors had dubbed this (ironically) as an anti-stall feature so long as the driver keeps their right foot away from the accelerator when engaging the clutch. The ECU will attempt to maintain a constant tick over speed by introducing more fuel. My feeling is that this is "spin" to hide an engineering short coming.

I appreciate that these engines are working much harder than in say a 90, but I do feel that they are inadquate. Can anything be done with the ECU mapping? I guess that someone, perhaps Porny may have the answer?

Thanks very much

Chris.

Chriso,

The anti stall is a feature (repeated to even greater success on the Tdci) but the Td5 are said to suffer from lack of torque low down (not that I notice in a 90) and with your extra weight this may be more apparent (although GBMud doesn't feel it). You can get them either chipped or ECU remapped with a lot of success.

Imho it's down to driver training. The Td5 is completely different to the old 300tdi when pulling away but because it's so familiar it takes a while to get used to it, and I too kept stalling.

The problem arises when you try to drive like you used to. You feed in a little throttle and the anti stall cancels, but then you haven't got enough throttle, so it stalls. It's worse off road (as GBMud Chris says)

The way to avoid it is to either:

if not in a hurry - nil throttle, let the clutch to bite and just ease the clutch out. (I'm mindful you probably have a lot more weight on though)

if pulling out of a junction - 1/4 throttle and let the clutch out as normal. This will over ride the anti stall. You might get premature clutch wear though.

Perhaps you could fit rev counters (depending on the year of manufacture they just plug into the harness - cost about £75 each or blag from LR) and do some tests to work out the optimum revs for pulling away and incorporate this into your driver training program?

Once you get used to it though it's phenominal. Try tickling along in traffic in first or second gear no throttle. It just crawls along at walking pace with no drama. Walks over obstacles or rough terrain (very good for gentle casevac?) with ease.

Good luck.

[Kev Baldwin]

You don't say how old your 130's are, but IIRC anti-stall software was only introduced to vehicles after 02 model year. Porny will no doubt be along to confirm this.

[Happyoldgit]

What year are the base vehicles, I ask as I believe some early TD5's did have stall problems.

[Chriso]

Thanks for the interest chaps,

The one in the photo on the right is on a X plate, and our second TD5 130 is approximately 3 yrs younger.

By the way I much prefered the drive of the older (now sold) 200 tdi on the left of this picture.

Have a great Christmas

Chris.

[Roverdrive]

You are quite correct that LRE instructors do demonstrate the anti stall characteristics of the TD5, and it does work well.

I have had both 200tdi and TD5 Discoverys and prefer the low down torque of the earlier engine.

However, I never had a problem stalling the TD5 once used to it.

I appreciate that the 130 will be a lot heavier than the Disco so will exagerate the problem.

When about in North Wales are you?

Might be worth a call to the Snowdonia LRE to get a second opinion on the vehicle in question to see if it is down on power etc?

[smo]

Never had a problem with either of my TD5's

[David Sparkes]

LRE being Land Rover Experience at http://www.landroverexperience.com/experie...rience/Home.htm

LRE Snowdonia at http://www.landroverexperience.com/experie...s/snowdonia.htm

I'm curious to know who maintains these vehicles. Although I'm NOT a TD5 person I was under the impression that there had been several engine software revisions to cure all these 'difficult' characteristics. I'm slightly surprised to hear the problem still exists today, and wonder if the engine software has ever been updated.

As I say, I claim no expertise, but am an interested observer.

[Porny]

All Td5's have 'anti stall' built in, but it was improved slightly in 2002 - in fact there have been a few further updates over the years (and it's been improved further with the trans'fender)

In all honesty, a Td5 as already mentioned needs a slightly different driving style to previous 200 and 300Tdi's - either more revs or pull away using the clutch only.

You could try unplugging the clutch switch, some people find this makes a difference - but its main role is as an anti surge/damping control.

It's unlikely that both of your Td5's are the same, but it could be that (esp. the later model) that they are from the batch that have the high/lows throttle maps reversed - so that the Defender thinks it is low, when actually in high.

Land Rover did this to reduce the driveline shunt that some customers complained about... but the downside is that when in high (and running the low range throttle map) the throttle is pretty unresponsive!!

This can be easily overcome by bridging the pins on the high/low switch wiring - which will result in the Defender thinking it is in high all the time.

A remap will improve low end response to a point - but you are limited as if you try and add too much fuel, you suddenly get lots of smoke low end.

If you wanted to try a remap then let me know, especially with the later Defender (as easier to do!), I'd happily let you trial one for a bit to see if it improves things...

And if it did, then I'd happily remap both Defenders at a very reduced rate - I have a lot of respect for mountain rescue teams who give up their time voluntarily to help others in what can be very adverse conditions!!!

One other thing to consider.... who services your Defenders???

There are a few things that can affect performance on Td5’s that would only be found using diagnostic equipment!!

Ian

[JST]

its all been said as above, specifically Pornys points.

i have no trouble with our 110 at work or my own td5 pulling away with no acceleration.

my understanding of pulling away hard on the power as Dave says will cause premature clutch wear. better to let the clutch up slowly without touching the throttle then when moving accelerate normally.

mine although a 90 and an early one '99 pulls away well with antistall, a mini digger on the trailer and a slight hill being the only time it has caused a stall.

Mine is also chipped although this made no difference to the pull away bit as above.

[Chriso]

Dear all,

Many thanks to everyone who has taken the trouble to share their experience and expertese. I have attempted the anti stall take off (without accelerator) in low box when on forestry tracks and still experienced problems. This could be the ECU map reversal?

Ian, I will talk to our transport officer about your kind offer and PM you in the new year.

Have a great Christmas

Chris.

[Earl]

Chris which MRT are you from ?

Adrian

[Roverdrive]

Chris

Merry Christmas!

Will be over in Bala some time during the week of the 7th Jan.

Let me know if you want me to call past to have a look at the motor.