Kam Shafts taken from Portal rover thread

[hbpfly]

what material are your half shafts being made from?

maybe post some pics of your work for all to see.

good luck, dont be affraid to look world wide for ideas and techniques.

Serg

The shafts are being made by Kam, so if they can't get it right, no one can ! The shafts that have been made in the far east were discribed by one analist as "fosalised marshmallow".

Many thanks for all the words of encouragement.

Hughie

[dollythelw]

The shafts that have been made in the far east were discribed by one analist as "fosalised marshmallow".

personally I wouldnt have been so kind.. quality and exectution - both strangers to your predecessor.

[uninformed]

im not overly impresed with kam's work. but if your happy with what they are making for you that is all that is important.

Serg

[Lara]

Would agree with that last statement,

Would not call Kam halshafts anything better than "fossilised Marshmallow" either though!

When I used them and spoke to them, it was quite clear that whoever I spoke to had read some specs on materials but had no idea on what they were really selling or making their shafts from, I broke and twisted so many I lost count!

Lara,

[Rizla 1]

When we used KAM shafts over 10 years ago when they had a guarantee but we twisted so many that they gave up on that idea - we had a least 15 or more piled up in the workshop all useless.

We went Ashcroft shafts and never had a problem since .

[ashtrans]

When we used KAM shafts over 10 years ago when they had a guarantee but we twisted so many that they gave up on that idea - we had a least 15 or more piled up in the workshop all useless.

We went Ashcroft shafts and never had a problem since .

Cheque in post !

[Jon White]

Shame ashcrofts dont make series shafts any more though! I have Kam rears in mine and am waiting to break them.....

Jon

[hbpfly]

When we used KAM shafts over 10 years ago when they had a guarantee but we twisted so many that they gave up on that idea - we had a least 15 or more piled up in the workshop all useless.

We went Ashcroft shafts and never had a problem since .

Here is a picture of a mog and a landrover side by side.

[ashtrans]

I thought Kam made the shafts for Ashcrofts ??

Hughie, wash your mouth out !

for the record, they do not,

[uninformed]

Hughie, wash your mouth out !

for the record, they do not,

i have always been under the impression that Ashcroft make there own shafts, and Kam, a different company, make there own.

Ashcroft have changed the material in the shafts and now are better than before. i didnt think there original shafts were that good, i heard that hey were breaking BEFORE stock OEM cv's. Dave correct me if im wrong. there new shafts seem better now.

i see the pic of the mog vs rover, of coarse its going to be bigger, but if you are going to the trouble of making them, get them made from as best as materila as possible, like 4340 300m or ams 6418

then the design and heat treating are a large factor as well.

for those looking for top quality series axles HI-TOUGH Engineering in Australia make them.

Serg

[will_warne]

i have always been under the impression that Ashcroft make there own shafts, and Kam, a different company, make there own.

Ashcroft have changed the material in the shafts and now are better than before. i didnt think there original shafts were that good, i heard that hey were breaking BEFORE stock OEM cv's. Dave correct me if im wrong. there new shafts seem better now.

i see the pic of the mog vs rover, of coarse its going to be bigger, but if you are going to the trouble of making them, get them made from as best as materila as possible, like 4340 300m or ams 6418

then the design and heat treating are a large factor as well.

for those looking for top quality series axles HI-TOUGH Engineering in Australia make them.

Serg

Serg, re the earlier Ashcroft shafts a lot depends on which model you had/have - I know of several people with early ashcroft shafts running in 'high stress' vehicles (big torque and large tyres) without issues. The shafts that got a bad reputation were the late axle shafts designed to work with the 32 spline CVs - the CV input diameter is tiny! Ashcrofts designed a really nice shaft that was as flexible as possible (the design was far, far superior to OEM shafts before we even get onto material) but the diameter entering the CV was just too small which resulted in some failiers. For the record Maxi Drive also made simerlar shafts and suffered the same problems.

Maxi Drive (now Hi-Tough) do make nice shafts. I'd really like to see how they perform on the test rig.

Hughie, good luck with the new business - I'm sure no one here wishes you anything but the best however any links to SFS won't help you. They're customer service was shocking and I have to say I have never seen fabrication worse than some of theirs particularly on the yellow thing. It was frankly dangerous. I think everyone will be pleased to know you have a differant approch to quality.

[hbpfly]

quote name='ashtrans' date='Aug 8 2008, 09:24 PM' post='296505']

Hughie, wash your mouth out !

for the record, they do not,

Hi Dave - really sorry - could it be that down the line you both use a similar supplier of material or tempering that has generated the link ? I have a set of your shafts and C/V joints in my trials truck - 110 tdi - and since fitting them a coupe of years ago I haven't had an issue. Prior to fitting you gear I could not be sure that I was going to get home in without breaking a shaft. Your gear is good quality, and it is backed by a good service. I will be in touch vis-a-vis shafts.

[

[Rizla 1]

i have always been under the impression that Ashcroft make there own shafts, and Kam, a different company, make there own.

Serg

As far as i know Kam don't make there own shafts - they have them made in a tin pot shed just up the road from me.

or they used to when we used them.

[Lara]

i dont agree, if that were the case alot more would do it. axle design has alot going on even though they look simple enough. and a maker needs a complete understanding of the end result to determine material choice, production methods and heat treating, just saying make sure its heat treated properly doesnt make it so....

Serg

Serge,

Halfshafts are not rocket science! believe me.

Any well trained and properly experienced engineer will be able to design a good pair of halfshafts, and make them for that matter,

Heat treatment is one of the major factors and this is the one point that it is better to take advice on if not 1000% sure.

The big question is the bit about "well trained and properly experienced"

I got so Mildly miffed of with breaking halfshafts, including Maxidrive (now Hi-tough) and Kam etc etc that I designed my own, spec-ed the material and had them made by the gent in my last mail, and we then had them heat treated by the guys who do Mclaren's and Williams's drive shafts, and to the same specs as they are made from the same material.

Had them in a long time now and not even marked them! And I am no rocket engineer!

If you read my post, I didn't say "use any design and any material but heat treat it correctly"

My advice was this.

Design them or have them designed by any reputable machine shop, get the heat treatment correct (and as this is usually not done by the machine shop themselves) make sure the heat treatment is up to quality and completely reliable.

The materials you quote are all fine, 4340, 300M (which is actually a slightly modified 4340 VAR) and Hy-Tuf (AMS 6418)

And all would work on most vehicles, even if the design was not perfect,

But all are totally useless unless heat treated correctly.

Not trying to get into a battle of "who is the best engineer" I am sure there are far better engineers on here than me.

Just trying to give sensible advice from quite a lot of experience in engineering production.

Lara.

[Lara]

Hughie, wash your mouth out !

for the record, they do not,

Quote of the year

Impressive restraint Mr. Ashcroft

[uninformed]

Serge,

Halfshafts are not rocket science! believe me.

Any well trained and properly experienced engineer will be able to design a good pair of halfshafts, and make them for that matter,

Heat treatment is one of the major factors and this is the one point that it is better to take advice on if not 1000% sure.

The big question is the bit about "well trained and properly experienced"

I got so Mildly miffed of with breaking halfshafts, including Maxidrive (now Hi-tough) and Kam etc etc that I designed my own, spec-ed the material and had them made by the gent in my last mail, and we then had them heat treated by the guys who do Mclaren's and Williams's drive shafts, and to the same specs as they are made from the same material.

Had them in a long time now and not even marked them! And I am no rocket engineer!

If you read my post, I didn't say "use any design and any material but heat treat it correctly"

My advice was this.

Design them or have them designed by any reputable machine shop, get the heat treatment correct (and as this is usually not done by the machine shop themselves) make sure the heat treatment is up to quality and completely reliable.

The materials you quote are all fine, 4340, 300M (which is actually a slightly modified 4340 VAR) and Hy-Tuf (AMS 6418)

And all would work on most vehicles, even if the design was not perfect,

But all are totally useless unless heat treated correctly.

Did you have yours made from 300 marging?

what did your axles cost?

are you the guy with the stroked td5?

if so i would say, first of well done, and secondly you may have a much better grasp of whats going on than most. like i said before why arnt alot more companies just pumping out good axles? why dont you do it?

my point is for a commercially viable drop in solution HI-TOUGH Engineering and Ashcroft are good.

Maxidrive first made there axles from en25(or26) and then went to AMS 6418. they have been making them for along time and have sold many many sets world wide to tourers, competitors and military vehicles. so i cant understand how someone making a axle now could not make them as good if not better. they have something to copy. people talk about maxidrive faliures, and yes i know they have. but i would bet everything that there % of faliures would be the least of the major aftermarket suppliers. and they probably have sold the most, so that gives them a disadvatage as there are more out there to fail.

Serg

[Lara]

Hi Serge,

Yes, mine were made in Maraging 300,

They cost 3500 Pounds for the four

1500 of that was just the material cost!!

BUT I saved a lot of money compared to the amount of time and expense I was spending on changing others every single outing

Yes, mine is the stroked 2.8 TD5.

Thank you for your compliment, but think I have no more skill than a lot of people on here, just maybe access to more

Your comments are absolutely spot on though, I too would say that Maxidrive are as good as you get, Never tried Ashcrofts as they were not available at the time but these too seem very good, and as you say, NOTHING is indestructible, not even mine I am sure.

I have my own business to run and don't want to get into Landrover parts, especially as Mr Ashcroft is doing a fine job of shafts etc at the mo and no need to make everyone's job harder with unneeded competition.

OK it may not be that simple but it is a fairly straight forward engineering design / production job, "Cost" is probably the limiting factor more than anything though, As always, materials are not cheap at the moment, and keeping stock takes a fair investment. And of course, the more suppliers the more the customers get watered down!

Can sell you some Lagonda shafts though, they are 1 3/4 thick

Regards,

Lara.

[uninformed]

Hi Serge,

Yes, mine were made in Maraging 300,

They cost 3500 Pounds for the four

1500 of that was just the material cost!!

BUT I saved a lot of money compared to the amount of time and expense I was spending on changing others every single outing

Yes, mine is the stroked 2.8 TD5.

Thank you for your compliment, but think I have no more skill than a lot of people on here, just maybe access to more

Your comments are absolutely spot on though, I too would say that Maxidrive are as good as you get, Never tried Ashcrofts as they were not available at the time but these too seem very good, and as you say, NOTHING is indestructible, not even mine I am sure.

I have my own business to run and don't want to get into Landrover parts, especially as Mr Ashcroft is doing a fine job of shafts etc at the mo and no need to make everyone's job harder with unneeded competition.

OK it may not be that simple but it is a fairly straight forward engineering design / production job, "Cost" is probably the limiting factor more than anything though, As always, materials are not cheap at the moment, and keeping stock takes a fair investment. And of course, the more suppliers the more the customers get watered down!

Can sell you some Lagonda shafts though, they are 1 3/4 thick

Regards,

Lara.

well 3500 for 4 axle shafts is Au$8750

thats alot of Maxidrive or HI-TOUGH Alxes, and i think we are not comparing apples to apples! your playing with the pinical of motorsport there. im sure Ashcroft or HI-TOUGH could make comp axles using top tear exotic material and heatreating. you have proven that. BUT would it be commercially viable, probably not.....

for that sort of money a person could build custom axles like TRU-HI9 35spline shafts and longfields monster cv..... or even maxi portals are near you cost!

what diff's are you running?

what cv's are you running?

i think that id like to know just the knowledge you have forgotten, but for must of us we can only read,and drive. leave the building of components to the pro's....

i like landrover's, its all i have ever owned, but if i was building something to compete, or play real hard in, it may start out as a rover but would be not very rover by the end. there diffs/axles have limitatons, probably something to do with the fact that the original LR stole parts from rover cars to get things going, then the landrover engineers stuck there head in the sand from then on, and in many other areas other than driveline.

im still to be convinced that the english have a basic understanding of electricity

Serg

[FridgeFreezer]

im still to be convinced that the english have a basic understanding of electricity

I think you'll find we have both ends of the spectrum, we have Lucas but we also do quite well at removing all traces of Lucas from our cars

[uninformed]

I think you'll find we have both ends of the spectrum, we have Lucas but we also do quite well at removing all traces of Lucas from our cars

the other day, my mate made comment on how good/easy it was to remove the bonnet on my 98def110 was, i told him that rather than design a good engine, they just made it easier for the mechanics..............

serg

[Lara]

well 3500 for 4 axle shafts is Au$8750

thats alot of Maxidrive or HI-TOUGH Alxes, and i think we are not comparing apples to apples! your playing with the pinical of motorsport there. im sure Ashcroft or HI-TOUGH could make comp axles using top tear exotic material and heatreating. you have proven that. BUT would it be commercially viable, probably not.....

for that sort of money a person could build custom axles like TRU-HI9 35spline shafts and longfields monster cv..... or even maxi portals are near you cost!

what diff's are you running?

what cv's are you running?

Serg

Yes I know, VERY expensive, But I must have replaced 20 or more halfshafts before doing it so was just fed up with forking out and not going anywhere!

I have no choice over here in Belgium if I want to keep it fully legal, we can't change the axles, (visibly anyway)

I thought about Longfields etc but one of my mates runs a Toy on Simex and does brake them, so wasn't so sure.

I also wanted my truck to be a "jack of all trades" for expedition and competition, which it did fine until needing to compete in competitions designed for and against Tray backs Too much body damage now!

I use Ashcroft CVs and to date have not had any issues,

I run Quaife Diffs that argument the Traction Control perfectly, But probably help the life of the CVs compared to ARBs, although it didn't seem to help the half shafts, I also refrain from full power on lock if I can help it.

CW&Ps are now Ashcroft 3.5:1 Pegged,

I had std 3.5s until recently but just blew both front and rear last November within 30 minutes of driving from one another!

Was to be expected though as I had just got the VGT sorted

Back on thread, I think Hy-Tuf, 300M and 4340 are about as good a materials you will ever get for commercial use,

As you see the use of Maraging is just Silly Money.

Lara.

[uninformed]

Yes I know, VERY expensive, But I must have replaced 20 or more halfshafts before doing it so was just fed up with forking out and not going anywhere!

I have no choice over here in Belgium if I want to keep it fully legal, we can't change the axles, (visibly anyway)

I thought about Longfields etc but one of my mates runs a Toy on Simex and does brake them, so wasn't so sure.

I also wanted my truck to be a "jack of all trades" for expedition and competition, which it did fine until needing to compete in competitions designed for and against Tray backs Too much body damage now!

I use Ashcroft CVs and to date have not had any issues,

I run Quaife Diffs that argument the Traction Control perfectly, But probably help the life of the CVs compared to ARBs, although it didn't seem to help the half shafts, I also refrain from full power on lock if I can help it.

CW&Ps are now Ashcroft 3.5:1 Pegged,

I had std 3.5s until recently but just blew both front and rear last November within 30 minutes of driving from one another!

Was to be expected though as I had just got the VGT sorted

Back on thread, I think Hy-Tuf, 300M and 4340 are about as good a materials you will ever get for commercial use,

As you see the use of Maraging is just Silly Money.

Lara.

i personally think the longfield/ashcroft cv, which are made by the same company, are good but could be made better.

im not a fan of the small ball, and they should make the whole thing from 4340 300m or hytuf, not just the star.

for the landrover they should have just got an aeu2522 and made the OD of the bell as big as possible to still fit in the swivel housing.... keep the balls the stock size and waist the stub shaft.

i actually contracted a company to make 4 cv's for me, turned out they were using the same manufacture as longfield, Ashcroft wasnt available at the time, but in the end it didnt happen, i guess i should be lucky that i got my $3000 back. these were going to be like the r60665 as in they would use a sepperate stub shaft. but be as big as possible, 23 spline input and output. totally made from either 4340 300m or hytuf. the idea was that if in production, one cv was made and the stub shaft just changed to suit the different applictaions....

and back to the thread, my point is simply that there has been good axles available for along time that it seems strange when companies make them not as good.

if the original poster is getting mog axles custom made, make them atleast out of 4340 300m or hytuf, sure they are much bigger and stronger, but for christ sake, do it right the first time....

Serg

[Lara]

and back to the thread, my point is simply that there has been good axles available for along time that it seems strange when companies make them not as good.

if the original poster is getting mog axles custom made, make them atleast out of 4340 300m or hytuf, sure they are much bigger and stronger, but for christ sake, do it right the first time....

Serg

Agreed,

Someone is bound to be sticking 44s or bigger on the end and powering it with a Blown Big Block or something just as daft

All people will see though is that someones indestructible shafts have broken

Lara

[uninformed]

Lara, can you give us some more info on what you were running and doing when breaking your shafts?

what cv's?

what size tyres?

what r+p?

what sort of driving conditions?

the reason i ask is because it seems that shafts are generally last to break(if running good ones). you mentioned Ashcroft not being available at the time, does this also mean you were not running there cv's at the time?

your truck would have had 32spline cv inputs from factory yes?

i know you have said Quaffie diffs, Ashcroft cv's and your shafts, but this is where you have evolved to. just wondering what package/s you have tried and what was breaking.

cheers, Serg

[Lara]

Hi Serge,

In short but without describing every single breakage as there honestly have been about 20

Most except the KAM stub shafts were under quite hard load.

Fitted Quaife Diffs and half shafts from the start,

Fitted the "Big" LR CVs (can't remember the part number now but am sure you know what I mean) again from the start ,

As soon as I fitted the Long stroke engine (370ftlb torque), Auto box, and 35 Mickey Thompson's I started getting trouble,

Shaft breakage in various conditions, used to drive a bit gung-ho so not necessarily blaming the shafts but they did seem to break too often!

Fitted Maxidrive in the rear after that, Snapped one on a rocky section while on the winch, under wheel assist, Heavy load, again not saying it was anything negative with the shaft, but it still Mildly miffed me off as everyone said they were indestructible even with 5000bhp ;o)

Cracked a few inner rings on the CVs but always found on inspection so no "failures" as such. (you can imagine I had a lot of inspection time due to half shaft breakages)

Spoke to KAM, they were very helpful indeed, sorted me with a full package and assured me that all would be ok, so changed Shafts and CV's to KAM, machined ABS rings etc for the CVs also.

Snapped front fused stub shaft immediately of road, Instant break climbing sand hill, changed that, and instantly broke another, Mildly miffed off and went home,

Got another 3 with stronger fuses, broke those 3 in same scenario, instantly! got another 3 with no fused sections, Broke one of those after 10 minutes, again in sandy conditions on steep climb, changed that, Snapped that also! Changed and then Snapped a rear during a severe section on hard but wet clay, launching off of the transmission stall, so max load!

That shaft had been in all of 1 hour of driving in total! Needed another, Shaft not available at time for a couple of weeks! Removed other shafts to find the other rear had twisted 180 degrees, nice picture of that

During that last conversation with the (very helpful and friendly) Gent at KAM (Kevin I think his name was) he said some things that made me think he was not quite so hot on metal specs / types and heat treating that he was making out! He confused several very different grades as the same thing, Easy to do I know but HE, in his position shouldn't.

confidence gone and I also had traction control problems due to the design of the KAM CVs and the lack of positive location so All removed and New Maraging 300 shafts etc made!

I knew I wanted Maraging 300 as we have made shafts for some of our racing cars from this before, Wonderfully strong! and that was it, Money no object I am afraid, I was in that frame of mind!!!

Chatted with Geoff (name in my earlier post) who is not only one of the best production engineers in the business and does a lot of my small batch / high quality work, but a very close friend and a mine of information, We chatted for quite a while, or I listened and then we went for it.

During the down time I fitted a set of Maxidrive 30% lower low range gears also.

Fitted initially with LR CVs or Great Basin Can't remember now, but changed to ashcroft CVs as soon as he had them available, in fact I had them on test quite early so probably before they were available, with not even a mark so far, I inspect regularly and shafts and CVs are "AS NEW"

Happy puppy now!

New VGT Big turbo fitted and re-chipped, 1.8 Bar boost.

430ftlb torque

Crown Wheel and pinions went as follows,

Rear, Three Peaks, Ireland, last October.

Oil checked and changed, Diffs checked for play before I went,

first section, very easy rocky bit and bang! Don't know why! Possibly Bolts on caps stretched but had to change it in a rush so no time to Analise!

Front, Same event, next day, first section,

Heavy mud run, winch over fallen trees, up into woods, Jammed between three trees, two with large roots between my front wheels, one attached invisibly to my rear bumper 3 winches attached, My hydraulic, and 2 fancy 8274s all stalling!!!!!!!!!!!! Wheel assist and Gggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr stoped wheel assist and then rear bumper ripped off and we were free Drove through mud and rock section in a beck and full gas to exit up a steep (too steep but you have to try ) dirt bank, that's where it gasped it's last breath

Winched out and drove out to remove shafts and prop etc in order to drive home to Belgium, Rear prop went on motorway home! That was also checked before the event!!

Ashcroft Ring and Pinions fitted now and Ring gears Pegged, also by Ashcroft, bloody good value for money!!

Fingers crossed for now

Landrovers