Kam Shafts taken from Portal rover thread

[Lara]

Quick answer Niel,

If your wife locked you out of the house, would you just say "ok darling, you are the boss, so you must be right"

At work, I "am" the boss but all my guys can ask me to justify something that they strongly disagree with! that's why I have a successful company!

And we have a successful forum and not a dictatorship.

Lara.

[V8 Freak]

Quick answer Niel,

If your wife locked you out of the house, would you just say "ok darling, you are the boss, so you must be right"

At work, I "am" the boss but all my guys can ask me to justify something that they strongly disagree with! that's why I have a successful company!

And we have a successful forum and not a dictatorship.

Lara.

Comparing to a locked door at home is in no way a similar situation.... (Although it sounds like you know my wife...)

We don't know what we don't know... I was only summising on what may have happened behind the scenes.....

Maybe in these situations we should PM the mod of the forum instead of potentially opening up the "Why do the mods do that" type discussion again ?

Last time through it got really heated... It's not needed and a quiet question will probably get us the answers we seek.

I suppose a question in open forum is akin to your team shouting out every question so that everyone in the area can hear each time they have any type of challenge for you. I would like to think they often ask the questions in a one to one discussion with you in order to understand your decision.

I'm not picking a fight nor saying you are wrong.... I just think the team who manage these forums do a great job in keeping this all running and in control so that we all benefit from the techincal nature of the content.

In the words of Forrest Gump "That all I have to say on that....."

Neil

[Mark90]

Maybe it would be helpful (and courteous) in these situations if the last post in the locked thread was from the mod responsible for locking it giving an explanation. Although i suppose that would bring it back to the front page and hence to more peoples attention.

[Lara]

Maybe it would be helpful (and courteous) in these situations if the last post in the locked thread was from the mod responsible for locking it giving an explanation. Although i suppose that would bring it back to the front page and hence to more peoples attention.

Great idea!

Lara,

[pantg]

People Hi,

It is strange how it happened that the thread was locked almost right after the undersigned who ACTUALLY had a connection with KAM said how the halfshafts should be selected. And did so without confusing alloys , as Steve from KAM and the General Manager of the company did, but just by using the official KAM guarantee coverage.

It is even more strange how the thread was locked RIGHT AFTER KAM has advise the undersigned that they were terminating the cooperation with him, a connection which dates back to 1993 and developed into a close business cooperation in the early 2000 getting at full speed when the first Locker GLOBALLY was fitted by the undersigned on a Greek client's car. (with several problems but this another story)

It is strange also that the decision from KAM resulted just because a lot of people from the forum have contacted KAM asking for details about what exactly is their guarantee.

KAM will of course say that the true reason is the very limited sales. Just ask them though what was the increase of turnover for sales in Greece and why the pay me due commissions on EVERY SALE to Greece when done through the existing network of fitters/retailers. And then ask them of the total turnover of 2008 up to now for a market that does not account for more than 5500 Land Rover in GENERAL (this is the approximate number of old and new Landies and Rangies exist on Greek roads)

I have a DETAILED e-mail from Mr. Kevin Mason who is the General Manager of KAM Differential Ltd, (yes the one who "confused" the alloys) dated May 18, 2006 quoting exactly what the guarantee limitations are.

IF KAM is trully supporting its products and its clients I dare them and EVERY member of this forum SHOULD ask KAM to provide a DETAILED description of what their guarantee is.

I also dare them to provide me with their consent to post the COMPLETE text of the e-mail Mr. Mason has sent me on May 18th, 2006. This text quotes analytical technical details of lbs/feet, tonnage and alloys used so I will not disclose such information unless KAM provides me with their approval to do. I am sure they will not.

They can at least provide me with their approval to quote EXACTLY what Mr. Mason has mentioned as what KAM will not accept as covered by their guarantee.

This will provide all interested parties with the final answer and resolve any and all matters.

I for one have accepted the termination of our cooperation because I have had enough of trying to remedy the problems of KAM products, assisting KAM into further developing them, dealing with people that were forced onto me and my existing network of specialised and authorised dealership after said company has tried to by-pass me as their sole representative and finally now being told by KAM that I should not advise asking existing and potential clients of KAM about the TRUE and ACTUAL terms of the guarantee covering the halfshafts and all KAM transmission related products.(apart from the "aerospace" and "military" spec products)

I was even "reproached" because I mentioned the alternative selection of a friend who "DARED" to use CV joints from another supplier.

I did not even suggest to use this source but only commented of the existance of this source of parts in order to add it to the ones already quoted by other posters.

My belief is that everybody who posts in this forum (and every forum for this matter) is doing so trying to share his knowledge and experience and provide TRUE and SUPPORTIVE comments.

No one will EVER reduce me of my right to express my opinion, especially when this is documented and right.

The moment that KAM will produce its standard range transmission components without limitations and excluding guarantee coverage if used for racing or on vehicles with modified engines and/or larger tyres I will be happy to say so. Until then as far as I know and as far as Mr. Mason's above e-mail is valid only their military and "aerospace" products have no limitations on their guarantee. And for this I can not be sure since I have NEVER been advised of the specifications and guarantee covering them. It remains to Mr. Mason or other KAM employees to advise ALL OF US about them.

On the other hand QUAIFE does provide a guarantee covering also competition use and their prices are pretty close to those of KAM.

I am sure KAM products deserve to be accompanied by a proper guarantee. Based on the writings of the General Manager of the company this guarantee does not apply to competition use and to vehicles with larger tyres and modified engines. Guarantee terms for the "Aerospace" and "military" specifications products would also be of assistance in order for US future and probable clients of KAM to know what we are buying and how to use it. We do not plan on starting a war but the "aerospace" products are meant for competition. So are they covered for such use? Are they immediately available by the way?

-------------------

The posting was 100% proper, no bad language was used, statements made with TRUE and ACTUAL documentation were posted and I am sure people who asked specific questions found specific answers.

I can still not understand why the post was locked unless of course the moderators and administrators were obliged to do so.

In this case we are all entitled to be advised about the reasons, the methods and the "warnings" that led to such actions.

-----------------------

Best regards from Greece

Pantelis Giamarellos

LAND ROVER CLUB OF GREECE

KAM representative up to 00.01 September 25th, 2008

[pantg]

People Hi again,

everybody who is interested into knowing how KAM has reacted when their guarantee coverage was quoted on this forum please read here

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=32043

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This forum is well known for allowing people to properly provide their input provided that it is well presented and documented, is not mileading and is of assistance to fellow members.

I believe no one has insulted anyone else, the language used was more than proper and assistance to questions together with alternatives was clearly provided without ANY considerations for potential profit.

What matters most for this forum is the best solution to our problems and hopefully the one that provides the best ratio of price/quality.

The locked post was a clear presentation of the problems of a fellow member and then a discussion fueled by other members providing excellent technical information (about the alloys, design, thermal heating, sources for manufacturing and/or buying).

I am happy that the administrators have chosen to lock it but they should at least present a logical justification or at least a conclusion so that all of us who participated will know that the topic was exhausted.

Unfortunately though KAM (after all they were the ones with the products in question) has not been allowed to present its case for the guarantee they provide on their products.

Best regards

Pantelis Giamarellos

LAND ROVER CLUB OF GREECE

no longer cooperating with KAM since 00.01 September 24th, 2008

[Happyoldgit]

makes sense to me to lock that thred- as you said yourselfit had run it's course

all interested parties had made their comments, everyone had had the chance to say their piece had they wanted to, and the thread had the possibility to descend into bickering and tit for tat insults. A perfect thread to lock at the perfect point- good moderation.

Agreed.

...and from the locked thread in question....

Thanks for your words Pantelis,

I think though that this thread has now run it's course and there is nothing more to be gained by adding to anything you have said in your extensive post.

Other than please everyone stop referring to anything special as "Aerospace" they have steel toilets on planes, these by definition are then made of "Aerospace alloy" but I would not make my transmission from the same material. "Aerospace" means nothing, so better to say nothing if you don't really know the spec, or just say "Super Alloy" which is a generic term commonly known to refer to special grad steel alloys.

Regards,

Lara.

(Text highlighted by me)

I don't recall locking that thread but regret the way people seem to feel justified in airing grievances before having the courtesy to contact the moderators of the forum concerned directly.

[Happyoldgit]

I'll merge this with the thread in question a bit later when I have more time. In the meantime I'm locking this - any problems PM me.

[Lara]

Hi Miserable,

With all respect, had you locked the thread and given your excuse for doing so in one fell swoop, no one would have had any questions to air. The fact that you did so without any comment, obviously brings up the question! In the wrong place? in my personal opinion "not" I was not the only person asking that question.

Lara.

My last comment on the subject.

Kind regards,

Lara.

[Happyoldgit]

Hi Miserable,

With all respect, had you locked the thread and given your excuse for doing so in one fell swoop, no one would have had any questions to air. The fact that you did so without any comment, obviously brings up the question! In the wrong place? in my personal opinion "not" I was not the only person asking that question.

Lara.

My last comment on the subject.

Kind regards,

Lara.

Like I said I do not recall locking the thread but if I had I generally post the reasoning for doing so.

My sentiments about contacting the mod/mods of the forum concerned via PM in the first instance still stand as in all likelihood it will generally, and amicably avoid threads such as this.

[white90]

I locked it after reading your post Julian where you said it had run its course

and can unlock any as easily if there is more to add

as the main participant You said it had finished Steve from kam said he'd not post on it

It is open again and merged with this one

It appeared to be done so that was the reason.

Sod all to do with KAM/Lara/Pantg or anything else

plainly to do with the thread running its course.

If anyone has any thing to add to it carry on.

But if you have direct requests for info from KAM or anyone else PM them

This is directed to Pantellis especially.

This site is here for its members not manufacturers there is no hidden agenda

If you are in any confusion still PM me I'll explain anything I can.

PS any moderation I carryout will carry my name so you know who to call/PM

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Nice cuppa tea anyone ?

Nige

[pantg]

Can someone FROM KAM at least say EXACTLY and responsibly what the guarantee offered by KAM is????

preferably someone binding the company with his word, name and signature.

Steve said he will not post any more. Strange that this happens when an official reply from KAM as a factory and company is needed.

Up to now both Steve and Kevin from KAM only supplied WRONG information on this forum and the specific post related to the problems with the halfshafts.

The only other person who HAD a DIRECT CONTACT for 15 years now with KAM has posted a DETAILED, TRUE and DOCUMENTED description of what the ACTUAL guarantee of KAM products is.

The result was to have the post locked

and for KAM to have the cooperation with the person (the undersigned) terminated because the company did not like the fact that clients started calling and asking for details of what the guarantee offered finally is.

But the question remains. Post locked or unlocked.

Does KAM sell the standard heavy duty halfshafts with a guarantee or not? IF yes is this guarantee limited for applications on vehicles with tyres and engine power up the factory specifications or at them most slightly modified?

If yes then how much the acceptable levels of modifications run?

Up to 30% more power and torque from the engine?

Up to what size of tyres?

Does any kind of guarantee apply to the "aerospace" halfshafts? Are they currently available?

Questions for military applications should not be discussed on an open forum so no such question are posed.

Does anyone from KAM have the guts to reveal the truth to their clients??????

Do they accept me to post the e-mail I have in my archives, sent from them, stating exactly what their guarantee is for the halfshafts?

IF yes I will post it immediately.

If not then this is a clear sign that they either do not accept ANY type of guarantee for the product or they are afraid to make it publicly known.

What have they replied to the people who called them in order to clarify the guarantee topic raised?

Does KAM consider the members of this forum as dumb sheep not asking for their right of a PROPER, ACTUAL and DETAILED guarantee on the products they purchase?

Take care

Pantelis Giamarellos

LAND ROVER CLUB OF GREECE

representative of KAM Diffs Ltd in Greece up to 00.01 September 24, 2008

[white90]

Contact KAM

this place isn't solely for your crusade against KAM

Try reading what I posted above.

Call/PM/Send them a letter/carrier pigeon/smoke signals

if you are their distributor why don't you know the answers?

[Les Henson]

You obviously have an agenda with KAM - if you are so determined to find out about their guarantee, why not e-mail/phone/etc them directly and find out.

This website has never and will never be influenced by any company.

If the thread was locked, then it was a wise decision by whoever locked it. It seems obvious from other posts on this same subject that it would turn sour. If a representative from KAM has said that he will no longer post on the subject - why are you persuing it?

Les.

[BogMonster]

It is perhaps time some folks took a look at this thread too http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=29495

[pantg]

You obviously have an agenda with KAM - if you are so determined to find out about their guarantee, why not e-mail/phone/etc them directly and find out.

This website has never and will never be influenced by any company.

If the thread was locked, then it was a wise decision by whoever locked it. It seems obvious from other posts on this same subject that it would turn sour. If a representative from KAM has said that he will no longer post on the subject - why are you persuing it?

Les.

Les Hi,

I do not have an agenda with KAM.

DO know what their guarantee is..

I wrote about it OPENLY and CLEARLY and it is now OBVIOUS that KAM was afraid to make it publicly known.

This is why they disappeared and will no longer post on the subject.

I do not persue anything apart from asking for the truth which apparently this factory and/or its representative were afraid to disclose openly and clearly to the public.

-----------------------------------------------

The subject has nothing to do with KAM anymore but with how companies that proclaim that they respect their costumers and trust their products SHOULD ACT.

IF asking for what the obligations of ANY company are against its clients is wrong then I am sorry for doing it.

The fact is that a company manufacturing products and selling them for heavy duty application disappeared when SERIOUS and important questions were raised about a specific line of products and the support they provide as a guarantee to this range of products.

Locking a post is NEVER assisting in providing replies.

OF course said company's sales manager announced to the forum that they will no longer provide input.

But then again the input they provided to the discussion was wrong or false on both occasions they did so.

And when someone provided specific and documented replies that BIND their company they simply said they will participate no more.......

I guess this is their tactic against true and proper advise towards their clients then.

Guarantee information is not to be provided only by telephone. A company selling products that it trusts and claims our money for them MUST openly announce the guarantee they provide and its limitations.

In this case a company (I do not care which this company is) withdrew from a discussion when the topic of guarantee to its products was raised. It also provided on two occasions false or wrong information. I do not care whether this was made on purpose or by mistake. IF they didn't want to answer they could simply say that this sort of technical information is a trade/manufacturing secret and is must remain as such. Everybody on this forum would respect that and understand the reasoning behing it. But telling lies and providing wrong information is not acceptable, even if it is by mistake.

Such kind of behaviour from ANY company is simply not acceptable from people who pay money to buy their products.

And when someone does NOT answer my questions , lies or withdraws from a civilised conversation this means that he has something to hide. Plain as that.

-----------------------------

It is good to know that the forum will and never was influenced by any company.

Such proclamations are good to be heard but are also very easy to make.

It is the facts only that prove them true.

I am sure the facts speak for themselves and we all draw our conclusions.

Thank you for assisting us on having a clear and true view.

I for one am sure that locking the post has assisted. Whom it has assisted is an open matter. Asking members have found no reply to their questions. A factory chose to withdraw from the discussion when serious questions were asked.

So why do I thank you for locking the post.

I am sure the forum is not influenced.

I am now also sure that a factory that does not answer specific questions related to their products and the guarantee they provide for them is not worth my money. And you provided me with the opportunity to terminate my connections with them.

So I actually gained a lot from your assistance, the forum and you locking the post.

It proved a lot of things and hopefully saved fellow members from doing the same mistake I did.

Which essentially is one of the reason fora exist.

Take care

Pantelis Giamarellos

LAND ROVER CLUB OF GREECE