Geminidawn Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 I have a 93 3.9 V8 Efi that has caused me no end of problems in wiring and re-wiring (as in new ECU and loom). Taking into consideration that electrics is not my forte it is usually left up until someone who knows what they are doing can take the time to look at it and even then the work is never complete. It was suggested to me recently that I should consider ripping out the EFi and putting in Carbs instead, a lot less hassle to maintain and easier and cheaper to convert to gas. Is it the way to go and is it straight forward enough? Any wise words will be much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Shurvinton Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 For far less than the carb conversion you could replace the Prince of Darkness ECU with something better that. Fridge has almost got it plug and play... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 As Bill says (or is hinting at, at any rate) - changing the EFI over to Megasquirt would be less hassle and give a better end result. You can very nearly just plug it in in place of the factory ECU - in fact mine (which Bill now has) was installed in a Hotwire ECU case so apart from a couple of extra wires and the pressure sensor pipe from the air inlet it really did just plug in. Even if there are problems elsewhere in the system, once the Megasquirt is installed you can plug in a laptop with some free software on it and see which sensor has the problem, so trouble shooting suddenly becomes really easy It isn't any easier to convert a carb engine to LPG, either - if you still have the hotwire ECU you need a couple of electronic boxes that disable the injectors and fake their presence to the ECU so it doesn't get upset. With Megasquirt you can just switch to an empty fuel table to stop injecting petrol when the LPG is running. If you convert to distributorless ignition (bit more work, but very worthwhile) then you can use the Megasquirt to control this and run different ignition maps depending which fuel you're on, which removes the compromise you normally have to have on a dual fuel vehicle. I like tinkering with electronics, which made it an easier decision for me, but it's really not hard to get to grips with and well worth the effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 Bill & Geoff have said it best already - although I'll add that you'll lose ~30bhp or more going to carbs, as well as MPG and driveability. Plug-n-play kits are doable, as is drive-in installation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geminidawn Posted October 15, 2008 Author Share Posted October 15, 2008 Thanks Guys, Don't know about the Megasquirt this is not for off roading or a performance vehicle it's mainly for work and reliability is top of my agenda. When it had the old Series 4 cyl and it broke down I could jump out and fix it with a Swiss Army Knife now it's just headache after headache. I needed the RR enging and chassis for towing mainly, now it hardly moves at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtail84 Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 Just to add to the above I have gone from carbs to Efi with Mega Squirt and there is no way that i will go back and i also run LPG which was so much easier to set up properly with MS than with carbs which was a pain.. IMHO. Jeff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimAttrill Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 We put a carb engine (ex Defender) in a Disco after the owner bought it cheap with a blown motor. The biggest problem was the fuel pump as the Efi pump is too strong. Sort of bodged a 110 Defender pump into the same place as the old pump while keeping the fuel gauge sender as before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 it's mainly for work and reliability is top of my agenda. So converting to clockwork would be improving that how? The RR EFI setup is old and unfriendly, it has quite a few bits it's fussy about that can make it run badly and it has zero diagnostics. If you ditch the ECU, airflow meter, and distributor you remove the three things most likely to cause problems. I've done thousands of miles in vehicles running MS, the only time I've had to fix anything was because I'd been wading so deep I'd filled the injector plugs with water and even then I could've carried on on 7 easily enough. As it is, swapping an injector out took 10 minutes and one screwdriver. People always say "Ahhh yes but you can rebuild a carb in the middle of nowhere", but that's because you're far more likely to have to rebuild a carb in the middle of nowhere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geminidawn Posted October 15, 2008 Author Share Posted October 15, 2008 I was not saying that carbs are more reliable but at least with carbs I know what I'm looking at, but if what you're saying is true then maybe megasquirt is the way to go. Good Lord! Just found the 18 page thread, better go put the kettle on! How much would a set up for an engine such as mine cost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gelf Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 what is needed...... a complete list of bits would be handy G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 what is needed...... a complete list of bits would be handy It varies depending on what you want - do you want MS to take over fuel only, or do you want EDIS to replace the distributor? Do you want to splice into your existing loom, or do you want a complete new one? Do you want to source bits from the scrapyard or buy new? You get the idea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gelf Posted October 15, 2008 Share Posted October 15, 2008 i would want the dizzy replacing, as i do like a little water........ and would rather buy new parts rather than fitting scrapyard bits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Everything you need for an MS install An ECU (MS1 V3 is standard), modified for EDIS operation and, because Nige will nag you until you fit it, PWM idle valve operation. An EDIS8 unit and connector Two Ford 4-pot coil packs, brackets, connectors, HT leads A 36-1 trigger wheel A VR sensor for said trigger wheel, plus mounting bracket A lambda sensor, with a boss welded into the exhaust Some 6mm push-fit nylon pneumatic hose and a 4mm tee piece Unless you enjoy soldering in the footwell of your car, either a wiring tail, or a complete new loom An air temperature sensor, either RS 151-215 or Fuelparts AT1010 A Bosch idle air valve, part# 280 140 516 What the colours mean: Green is stuff I sell. Blue is stuff other people sell and you're just as well buying from them. Red is stuff you're frankly just as well picking up from the scrapyard (or in the case of brackets, modifying/making yourself). I can sell you a complete kit of everything (with forum discount, natch), but that just means you're paying me to wander round a scrapyard, bash metal, or pop into a Ford dealership to pass stuff on you could've got by yourself. Since I don't especially enjoy rummaging round scrapyards, making brackets, or talking to Ford dealers I encourage people to use their own initiative on those things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gelf Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 need to do some shopping then......... thanks if you want to send a pm to me for the price of the bits you sell then that would be great. thanks g. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geminidawn Posted October 16, 2008 Author Share Posted October 16, 2008 Read the thread and Megasquirt looks like the way to go, just not now, mainly due to time and money. I need a quick cheap approach to get my paperweight rolling again as it's been laid up fo so long now awaiting attention from someone who knows what they are lookin at that the disks are beginning to seize. I have to get it working for the winter and once it is running then maybe I can drive it somewhere in the spring to get the Megasquirt fitted. But for now it is not moving at all and I need to get that sorted. So do I wait and see if yet another mechanic can find and fix the fault or bin the EFi and get carbs even if only for the short term? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 I'd try working through the troubleshooting manual in the tech archive, EFI isn't vastly complicated when it comes down to it - if it's not working it's because the ECU is not seeing what it expects to see. It may not seem like it sometimes, but EFI follows fairly straight logic. £5 for a multimeter could save you a load of cash, and also help you learn a bit more about how your car works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geminidawn Posted October 16, 2008 Author Share Posted October 16, 2008 I'd try working through the troubleshooting manual in the tech archive, EFI isn't vastly complicated when it comes down to it - if it's not working it's because the ECU is not seeing what it expects to see. It may not seem like it sometimes, but EFI follows fairly straight logic. £5 for a multimeter could save you a load of cash, and also help you learn a bit more about how your car works. Thank you, but I would not of posted this thread if I did not already try that. I hear that wiring is straight forward, yeah, but so is algebra if you know how, or you have some one there to point you in the right direction. I even got a guy who is fairly competent in 12v to have a look with a diagram and a meter and he could not find the fault. I live 50 miles from any decent garage so a call out would be with no guarantees and once they hear it's a hybrid I'm told it's something they would not get involved in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveRK Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 What actually is the fault? Theres plenty of folk on here who have experienced just about most faults going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geminidawn Posted October 16, 2008 Author Share Posted October 16, 2008 What actually is the fault?Theres plenty of folk on here who have experienced just about most faults going. Well you turn the key and the starter motor whines but beyond that nothin' before you turn the key and you'd hear the pump prime and the engine would fire up, now you just hear a "click" All the trouble started after the whole fuel system got contaminated with water, rusted the pump, clogged the jets and shorted the electrics. The pump, ECU, fuel filter,relays, spark plugs and EFi loom have been replaced and the fuel system purged, so there is a ghost in the machine somewhere. But where? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 You say the fuel pump doesn't whir any more? Just a click? Check the earthing to the pump if you have had it all out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Sounds like the fuel pump has jammed - can do this through either water contanination or from fuel giving it a glaze, even being left unrunning for a while they can jam. try Disconnecting the fuel pump and wiring it direct to a battery to see if you can get it to "Whir" Even then you may find its whirring - but not producing enough pressure - a false sense of its "OK" If it does whir then look at the fuel pump relay and fuse If connected direct and no whirring remove from tank and gently tap the motor base to try to free it If none of the above work get a known pump and try again Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geminidawn Posted October 17, 2008 Author Share Posted October 17, 2008 Thanks, the replacement pump was tested before it went in and it was running ok at the time (2 months ago). Whether if that is still the case I'm not sure for there was alot of work done since and the pump has been inactive now for a while. I'll check both the pump and the earth this weekend and post the results. In the meantime if anyone has any other ideas or a copy of "EFi's for Dummies" I'd love to hear from them. On the carb front I got offered a set with manifolds for less than €100, would changing to carbs mean changing the fuel pump again for a different velocity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 On the carb front I got offered a set with manifolds for less than €100, would changing to carbs mean changing the fuel pump again for a different velocity? Yes. It's really a very very very very very bad idea though -unless you enjoy living in the 1960s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gelf Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 i had a britpart pump sieze solid after only 8 months......... fiitted an original now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geminidawn Posted October 17, 2008 Author Share Posted October 17, 2008 Yes.It's really a very very very very very bad idea though -unless you enjoy living in the 1960s. Thanks Man, that's the first straight answer I got to the original question Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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