discojmz Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Im in need of a bit of serious help here. a slight boo boo was made when finishing timing up my discovery a week or so ago, and a timing pin was not removed. it promptly removed itself when test starting the engine, but removed part of the front of the injection pump also. cue one pump with diesel flooding the timing case. this is what happens when you get someone to do the front of the engine bit while you lay underneath and check the timing mark through the flywheel case hole. oh well, chalk it up to experience, buy a replacement off ebay at a reasonable price. replacement arrives, box is in a hell of a state. its taken some real pain in transit. ripped, torn, mishapen, the works. oh well, pump looks ok, fit pump, time it up, fire up the engine. engine runs brilliantly. happy as larry face drops, fuel coming out around the throttle spindle at quite some rate. Id read about this a number of times. cue red mist descending, back on laptop, paypal dispute, yada yada yada. heated discussion between myself and seller. I claim it was never as described in good working order, he says it was. I apologise when I remember the state of the packaging and suggest that carrier may well have damaged product by an impact to the side of the throttle arm, therefore neither of us deserves to be out of pocket, they need to cough up. all along, seller is claiming that the pump must have been fitted incorrectly, which is impossible. everything only fits in one place, everything was labelled when removed, and put back as per workshop manuals. ENGINE RUNS PERFECTLY. Seller suggests timing being out causing pressure in pump and blowing seal. I explain that where the spindle is, the pump only has lift pump pressure, timing has no bearing on it, and the engine running flawlessly and all timing marks aligned perfectly disproves this also. if i put one finger either side of the throttle arm, I can rock the spindle in its hole easily, there is considerably more play in it than the broken one I took off!! seller claims it was bench tested before delivery with no leak, but now says cant believe that it can have been damaged in transit 'as theyre really robust units' Can someone please confirm what I already know, and hopefully someone might be able to give me something in writing that I can use here. It's really depressing me now. Im very much out of pocket, my discovery has now been off the road for a week so I have no transport, and it's currently looking like im going to have to borrow my dad's and travel a way to spend even more money on another unit just to become mobile once more. help me I beg of you Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluespanner Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Can you not accept the fact that the bloke is a toss er and make a good pump out of the two? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discojmz Posted October 19, 2008 Author Share Posted October 19, 2008 this idea that incorrect timing would create back pressure into the pump and force diesel out of the spindle. surely A: the injectors open by way of pressure in the flow direction which pushes against a spring to open the injector, thus nothign can be forced back in the opposite direction also the spindle is at the low pressure side of the pump, not the high, and ne'er the two shall meet?! not to mention once again, the engine 'runs' flawlessly, the pump just leaks profusely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discojmz Posted October 19, 2008 Author Share Posted October 19, 2008 Can you not accept the fact that the bloke is a toss er and make a good pump out of the two? I wish I could, but that would mean putting my internals in the other's casing... Ive not a clue where to start and dont fancy it tbh. The chap has 100% positive feedback on ebay of over 430 feedbacks. I dont think he's the type to try and fleece someone. Hell, I'll even believe the item really was AOK on his side of the courier, but on my side it is NOT. His responsibility, and since he has £150 coverage with parcel farce, I dont know why he's being so difficult. I only wish Id given Amazon4x4 a ring first Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sparkes Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 I think what bluespanner is saying is that you have clearly established that the seller is not minded to take the unit back, refunding your money. You 'might' be able to get a professional fuel injection engineering firm to examine the faulty pump, and write a report which you can use with Paypal to convince them the item was clearly faulty, and get them to forcibly remove the money from the sellers account. This report needs to state that the leakage is due to wear, not impact damage. However, getting the report will cost you money, and Paypal will take a definate amount of time to process the claim, and this assumes they decide in your favour. Thus my view, and I think bluespanner is of the same mind, it's not worth chasing the seller, as he is clearly determined to maintain his position that the unit was OK. It's going to cost you too much time and money to prove him wrong. I note that you can now leave the seller negative feedback, without them being able to leave you a spiteful negative response. You could try and claim off the carrier, but I don't think it is their problem. Did you insure the package? Did you keep the badly damaged packaging? Did you take photographs before you opened the package? Did you record on the Carriers documentation that the item was badly handled in transit? A series of 'No' answers weakens your chances of claiming off the Carrier. Moving forward, you don't actually say what type of pump this is. It MAY be possible to change the cover from your damaged but leak free pump on to the undamaged but worn pump. I've done this on a CAV DPS pump, but it isn't exactly easy. As you say, the whole exercise has been an expensive training session, from not checking the work of assistants, and the gamble that is an Ebay purchase. Good Luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 The seller is talking rubbish and lying through his teeth. Incorrect timing would not cause any leaks. If you had set the timing wrong - even by one tooth you would know about it. He sold you a duff pump - plain and simple. You can remove the throttle spindle/body, but I've only ever done it on an N/A engine. Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discojmz Posted October 19, 2008 Author Share Posted October 19, 2008 You could try and claim off the carrier, but I don't think it is their problem.Did you insure the package? Did you keep the badly damaged packaging? Did you take photographs before you opened the package? Did you record on the Carriers documentation that the item was badly handled in transit? A series of 'No' answers weakens your chances of claiming off the Carrier. The package is covered to the tune of £150 by parcel force's standard policy just as I believe royal mail parcels are covered to about £36. I do have the badly damaged packaging and took high quality photographs before opening the packaging. Unfortunately not signing for the package myself I didnt record as such on the carrier's docs. the damage was primarily to the underside of the package also so perhaps less visible when handed over. either way the pump had not been drained and the packaging was soaked with diesel. Moving forward, you don't actually say what type of pump this is. It MAY be possible to change the cover from your damaged but leak free pump on to the undamaged but worn pump. I've done this on a CAV DPS pump, but it isn't exactly easy. apologies, the pump is a rotary bosch unit from a 200tdi As you say, the whole exercise has been an expensive training session, from not checking the work of assistants, and the gamble that is an Ebay purchase. Good Luck many thanks David The seller is talking rubbish and lying through his teeth. Incorrect timing would not cause any leaks. If you had set the timing wrong - even by one tooth you would know about it. He sold you a duff pump - plain and simple.You can remove the throttle spindle/body, but I've only ever done it on an N/A engine. Les. Thanks Les Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sparkes Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Obviously some simultaneous writing of responses took place :-) It's worth checking if you can initiate a claim against ParcelForce, although I thought it was the sender who had to do this, in which case I can see a problem!! I don't have any experience with the Bosch 200TDi pump, so don't feel I can comment precisely. Have you thought of the Small Claims Court procedure? Again, not an instant response if you go down that route, but if you can write knowledgably about the process when emailing the sender it may be the lever that tips the balance. Also, if you haven't already done so, try offering (sending) your pictures to the seller. Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discojmz Posted October 19, 2008 Author Share Posted October 19, 2008 Obviously some simultaneous writing of responses took place :-)It's worth checking if you can initiate a claim against ParcelForce, although I thought it was the sender who had to do this, in which case I can see a problem!! I don't have any experience with the Bosch 200TDi pump, so don't feel I can comment precisely. Have you thought of the Small Claims Court procedure? Again, not an instant response if you go down that route, but if you can write knowledgably about the process when emailing the sender it may be the lever that tips the balance. Also, if you haven't already done so, try offering (sending) your pictures to the seller. Cheers Unfortunately Im a lover not a fighter, and as such, something like small claims doesnt appeal in the slightest. The furthest I would take this would be elevating it to a paypal 'claim'. since ebay rules are that the seller is responsible for the condition i receive the goods in, and I can prove that it was less than acceptable, I should be able to get a result that way. however, my own morals/methods dictate that I try my utmost to deal with this personally with the seller, and only wish him to see reason. perhaps I am expecting too much. I certainly shall contact parcel force and see if I can claim myself. I have mentioned that I have documentary photographs but having not actively offered them, I shall make sure that I do. Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 I have a 200TDi Injector pump here. I could investigate/tell you how to repair it if you are ok with doing it your end? It'll be along the lines of a tech thread, so pictures, tools, etc. It'll take me a day or two to do it. Let me know. Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discojmz Posted October 19, 2008 Author Share Posted October 19, 2008 I wouldnt be confident doing it from mere words, but one of your words and pictures writeups may be a different story. Seems like a scary scary black art type repair to me haha. Im unsure what to do to be honest. Im feeling the hurt of not having my vehicle for a week now, so it's whether I hold out a while longer or go get a replacement tomorrow. I suppose i could get a replacement, fix the dodgy ebay one and sell one of the two on once I knew it was in full working order. I was going to try pushing the seller to take it back for a refund on the basis that if he's so certain theres nothing wrong with it he had nothing to lose, but I think ive now convinced him that it IS damaged, only problem being he's making out that Ive done it through incompetance or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 If I can do it, then you'll be able to. You'll only need to follow detailed instructions with pictures to accompany them. It's up to you anyway - let me know. Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discojmz Posted October 19, 2008 Author Share Posted October 19, 2008 I can see me being stuck with it at this rate Les so yes I would appreciate it from both practical and educational points of view Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discojmz Posted October 20, 2008 Author Share Posted October 20, 2008 right, this morning I went out to run it again in the workshop and get some photos of its installation, a video of the engine running and photos of the leak if possible. upon waggling the throttle arm back and forth as I had been doing before, something felt to pop or drop back into position. the leak has certainly lessened, but it has not stopped. Is it likely to stop of its own accord? one thing I do notice is if I run the engine for a minute or so, (very short periods only, no coolant in engine) when I turn it off, I can hear pressure escaping from the spindle sides, so I know it's definitely not sealed. Ive got some photos etc now anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discojmz Posted October 20, 2008 Author Share Posted October 20, 2008 right well ignore the bit about the leak having settled down. It was all but not leaking at all at tickover when I just went back to the workshop. revved it up and down gently a bit, still nothing. took it up somewhere near WOT for a second max, and theres diesel pouring down the side, shot up the side of the spindle and run along the underside of the throttle arm and dripping off it like crazy. waggling the arm seems to settle it again. there is obvious wear on the bearings or seals or bush, whatever the shaft has holding it. I can imagine if the shaft was settled when bench tested it wouldnt appear to leak... ...or am I just being all young, idealistic and naiive again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusty_wingnut Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 I think you need to swallow your pride mate. it's harsh as you've paid for it and it's not upto scratch, but in my experience you suck it up and make best of what you've got for two reasons: 1- you want you truck back 2- do you really want to be arguing for ages about a poxy injector pump? Follow Les' advice and make the new pump work with your old top cap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discojmz Posted October 20, 2008 Author Share Posted October 20, 2008 well i picked a pump up this morning locally at a very reasonable price. I cant find any play in the arm so im going to fit it now. the amount on ebay actually stands including postage at 2x the price i bought this pump for (from a reputable parts vendor with 6 month warranty) so Im not going to let the money go unchallenged. It's a lot of money to me, Im 21 and dont currently work full time. My truck will be back on the road today whatever. Theres no time constraint on getting the money back. If I can fix the pump and sell it on, then I may well do that instead. one way or another I shall recoup some or all of the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muther Trucker Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 glad ur getting it sorted m8, i had a nightmare with my pump last week... all started from a dodgy stop solenoid, got a copy part one for £13... wouldnt run with it in, bought a bosch one for £10, but to change them i removed the throttle cable bracket, but i removed 1 too many bolts, so when i fired it up to test it i didnt notice the back of the pump had separated about 3mm from the rest of the body... result - snapped shaft in center of pump... got replacement pump from scrappers for £80, got it home + it was full of grit + muddy water + took ages to free off, fitted it + it wouldnt rev up... removed it + took them both to surestart who charged me £60 to put the good shaft in my original pump (the scrappers gave me £30 towards the cost), refitted it, still wont rev up... surestart said i`d plumbed it up wrong or it was drawing air... spent next day mucking about then dragged car upto surestart... they got it running on the adjustment screw on the back, but then it cut out + wouldnt start.... dragged it home, removed pump, took it back to surestart they stripped it again + found they`d put 1 too many springs inside!!! 2 blokes working on 1 pump doesn`t go well, this spring was clanging about in the bottom of the pump stopping it revving up... re-fitted + now goes like a rocket!!! B) B) total cost: £143.... £19 more than i paid for the whole engine in the first place!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonb Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Injector pumps do leak from the throttle spindle - its just wear and tear. Mine did it. If you or someone else searches on here, i did a full tech write up on this around June/July last year - don't think it got in the tech archive though. The parts are cheap, its not particulary difficult to do but you need to be careful. No specialist tools required. I'm sure someone will post the clicky soon... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 I just removed the cover and did some tecnical stuff on how it's done. The tools rerquired are mega-expensive though. Grab your wallets gents and laydees, because you need a pair of long-nosed pliers, a 10mm spanner, a 5mm (or thereabouts) blade screwdriver, something that will pass as a drift with a diameter of 11-13mm (so an old 10mm bolt), a set of round-head allen keys (or at least a 4mm one), and the wire bit off an old coat hanger. Oh - and something to make a scratch with. Les Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveSIIA Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 A search through this forum gives "How to replace the throttle spindle seal on a Tdi Injection pump". HTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 I didn't know that was there I've done the same job, but in a different manner. I only removed the throttle stop screw though - the 4 x 4mm allen bolts can be got at with a ball-end Allen key with the exception of the one concealed by the throttle stop screw. The throttle spindle itself is ok, so just the bush and small O-ring need replacing. The lever that the max power screw presses against is spring-loaded (quite powerful too). I used the wire bit off a coat hanger to pull it backwards inside the gasket contact area while I replaced the top cover. Once the lever is against the corresponding lever that's inside the top cover, I then pushed the top cover into position (so that the locating dowel drops into the main casing), then replaced the allen bolts. I would have done a thread on my version of the same thing last night, but two pictures are blurred (you have to get really close and still get a clear picture), so I'll have to take them again. Repairs of injector pumps seem to be a bit of a black science, but so far it seems just a case of knowing what to do. Still don't think I'd like to tackle a total rebuild of one though Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discojmz Posted October 21, 2008 Author Share Posted October 21, 2008 Nice one. I shall have a go at this when I get a spare bit of time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.