sotal Posted December 23, 2008 Share Posted December 23, 2008 Only got basic details but a friend asked if I knew why his Td5 won't start after his aux belt snapped. It's a V reg Td5. From what I can tell he started it up, belt snapped but it carried on running. So he switched off and checked to make sure none of the remains of the belt were in the way. Wanted to restart engine - I presume without a new belt on, but it now won't start. Any ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted December 24, 2008 Author Share Posted December 24, 2008 Only got basic details but a friend asked if I knew why his Td5 won't start after his aux belt snapped.It's a V reg Td5. From what I can tell he started it up, belt snapped but it carried on running. So he switched off and checked to make sure none of the remains of the belt were in the way. Wanted to restart engine - I presume without a new belt on, but it now won't start. Any ideas? Any ideas anyone? Should the engine run without the aux belt on? Does it drive anything crucial? anything else it could've knackered - can't find any info from the search or Rave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
First_Fleet Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 I know nothing about Td5s except they seem to have a lot of wiring loom oil leaks, but doesn't he know at all, what the belt is driving? It may help others here to diagnose the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted December 24, 2008 Author Share Posted December 24, 2008 I've only got half a message as he was on the way to xmas party. Just spoke again, He doesn't have ACE or Aircon, he was driving when he smelt smoke so stopped and found snapped belt, was only a couple of miles away from his work so started it back up (took lots of turns of starter motor) drove slowly and stopped after a couple of mins to let it cool down, then drove on. It then stalled driving down the track to his work and wouldn't start up he said the starter motor was just clicking. Whilst driving without the aux belt on he said the oil light and battery were on. Now it won't start, I'm taking him a belt across later Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treebloke Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 Take the belt back off and check the bearings on the pullys that the serpentine belt goes around. I had this on mine a few weeks back and the one pully had seized completey and would not turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escape Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 The belt drives several components, some more important than others. The one I would worry about is the waterpump! A TD5 will happily run without the fan in low load conditions, but without circulation of the cooling fluid, the block could overheat locally. Secondly, without a belt the alternator will not be driven, so the battery will get depleted (hence the warning light). I hope the non-starting is simply a dead battery! Not sure why the oil-light would be on, as the oil pump is not driven by the belt. Finally, the vacuum pump also runs from the belt, so he would have had no steering or brake servo. All in all it sounds like a very bad idea to run the car without a belt, even for a short distance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted December 24, 2008 Author Share Posted December 24, 2008 It doesn't seem too bad, popped up today. Alternator is completley seized and had a big blob of melted rubber on it. How should the water pump feel? It sort of feels a bit lumpy as it turns is that normal? Feels like I would expect a pump to feel really - just checking it's not supposed to be smooth? What about the big pulley at the bottom which drives the fan, that turns a good amount then there is a metallic clunk same if you turn either way. When it makes the clunk it won't turn any further. Is that normal? Definatley seems like the non starting is the battery. Just off to find out how to change the alternator on a Td5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted December 24, 2008 Author Share Posted December 24, 2008 looking at the Rave CD it looks like you could just get the vacuum pump and replace just that - is that correct or does it come as a single whole unit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 from microcat with a chassis number or registration via PM I can ID the correct one for his car Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 What about the big pulley at the bottom which drives the fan, that turns a good amount then there is a metallic clunk same if you turn either way. When it makes the clunk it won't turn any further. Is that normal? Are you referring to the crankshaft pulley? If so - no, it shouldn't do that. You'll find it very difficult to turn it by hand normally and it wouldn't normally clunk. Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted December 24, 2008 Author Share Posted December 24, 2008 Thanks White90 that picture answers everything, I've been hunting for my copy of Microcat - it's installed at work but I won't be back there for a couple of weeks. Looks like it comes as one complete unit with vacuum pump. Strange that the RAVE CD gives instructions on how to split the unit into it's two parts. Just got to find somewhere with one in stock who is open over xmas! 2nd hand one on ebay at the moment at a good price but it's the same age so it's too likely to follow the same path to destruction at some point soon! Not too expensive new it's just finding one that will prove difficult! Well Merry Christmas Everyone for in half an hour! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted December 28, 2008 Author Share Posted December 28, 2008 Are you referring to the crankshaft pulley? If so - no, it shouldn't do that. You'll find it very difficult to turn it by hand normally and it wouldn't normally clunk.Les. Yep Crankshaft Pulley. It turns about half a turn to the left then hits something which brings it to a stop with a metalic clunk, then you can turn it back the other way half a turn or so then it makes a clunk then other way and won't turn any further. He has been up today to jump start it to see if it would start but it wouldn't start so it sounds like something is knackered as well as the alternator/vacuum pump being seized. He's got a local land rover specialist coming to pick it up tomorrow but any other ideas would be great - any ideas why the crankshaft would be behaving like that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashtray Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 if thats the case with not being able to turn the crankshaft pulley all the way round then surely that means cam chain/belt has snapped. Messy, this may have occured from being overheated by having the fan belt snap. My knowledge of td5s is not that great. But from the basic symptoms your telling me that the waterpump isnt very smooth to turn, it should be. The vehicle's battery will have run flat from having no aux belt. even tdi's cut out when the battery is completely flat. and if you cant turn the engine over then the timing is completely out. Hope its not the case though. Best of luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted December 29, 2008 Author Share Posted December 29, 2008 I was hoping it wasn't going to be the timing chain. The water pump was fairly smooth to turn but felt like you could feel the compression of the pump, so it would get slighty harder to turn then suddenly spin easy etc. Should the crankshaft pulley just spin freely and easily? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimAttrill Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 This is what happened to one TD5 after the belt snapped and forced itself into the sump. The chewed up belt blocked the oil pickup and no oil pressure caused the camshaft to seize. Don't drive on if your belt breaks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted December 29, 2008 Author Share Posted December 29, 2008 Now you say that I do remember your post: http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=23765&hl= But I don't think that's the case here as he has the snapped belt and it's mostly there. The edges haven't been stripped. It feels brittle from the heat and there was a bit of melted rubber on the alternator/vacuum pump where it had snappped. Can you confirm the crankshaft pulley spins freely all the time without the belt on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 The crankshaft will be hard to turn - you would need to put a socket on it to do it even reasonably easily. As a piston approaches compression it will become harder to turn it, but you should still be able to do so. From what you are saying it sounds like a piston is rising and hitting a valve or possibly worse. You will probably have take the head off to see what's what. Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashtray Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 the water pump should be smooth and free to turn, with no hard points, it is not like an oil pump where it compresses the fluid. it is purely an impeller, it looks similar to a turbo impellor, and should require reasonably little effort to turn by hand, for example it should spin just slightly after flicking it with your finger, provided the belt is detached of course. Oh and a word of advise to people who love RTV/black sealant when rebuilding engines, only use enough, too much and the oil pump will pick it up and block the strainer, i have seen this happen many times on mercs where people have refitted rocker covers with far too much sealant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted December 29, 2008 Author Share Posted December 29, 2008 Well the Landy Specialist had picked it up today and checked it over, not really sure what he has done so far as I only got a relayed message but apparantly he got it running with a replacement alternator and belt on but it's running rough and the oil light isn't going out. I think it's going to be left there to be fixed so not much more can be done. I will post the findings up. Do I remember there was some common problem on early td5's with the oil pump - could that be related? Just to add - he didn't seem worried about the crankshaft pulley - some kind of damper was mentioned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted January 4, 2009 Author Share Posted January 4, 2009 Just to let you know what the garage found: He dropped the Sump off and found the nut and sprocket had come off the oil pump, this had then starved the vacuum pump of oil causing it to seize (I would have thought that would take a good amount of time?) The turbo is also stuffed from lack of oil and the water pump feels like it's on it's way out. Odd thing was he never noticed the oil light on, I was in the vehicle the day before and it definatley wasn't on then. So it's having some new shells, alternator/vacuum pump, turbo, water pump, oil pump and new belt - don't think it's going to be a cheap fix! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stobbie Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 This is unfortunately a rather common problem. At what mileage did it happen with this one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 145,000 miles and it's a 1999 on a V plate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimAttrill Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Odd thing was he never noticed the oil light on, I was in the vehicle the day before and it definatley wasn't on then. Funny thing is, the guy who had the camshaft seize also said he never saw the oil light come on. I did when we started it up so I didn't believe him. Still don't, come to think of it. Best to fit an Engine Management System which makes lots of noise if the oil pressure drops. Anyone out there with a '99 TD5 should check the oil pump bolt, if it has not been done already. In 2000 LR splashed out and bought some Loctite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M&S Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Glad I read this all the way through. Would have added my thoughts but already covered. Didn't expect the oil pump to have been the problem though. Also, not doubting your friend but I suspect that the oil light was on. Perhaps he didn't notice it, the dash isn't that user friendly on Landys, it's easy to have the steering wheel block most of it depending on your driving position. Or maybe it was a cold morning, he was half asleep, just didn't see it. So the oil pump went, he kept driving, then the vacum pump seized. The belt then ran hot, perhaps causing the already worn bearings of the alternator (at 147k it's doing well) to finally give up before snapping the belt. With regards to the water pump, on mine the water pump is driven from the power steering pump, so if the pulley you were turning was on the top right as you face the engine then you would have been turning the power steering pump as well as the water pump. This might give you that hydraulic pump feeling I guess something that we can all learn from this is: 1) If the oil light comes on stop immediately! 2) If something does break and you are not sure what else it runs/affects then do not keep driving. 3) As said, check the nut on your oil pump. If LR really did fix this issue with loctite then I'll not bother dropping my sump just yet, but it will be coming off before our overland trip. Hope he gets it all sorted out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimAttrill Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I was being rather cynical there, LR did have the Loctite but they admitted that on some 1999 engines it was omitted or forgotten or whatever. I must add that IMHO the oil pump arrangement on the TD5 is the most stupid I have ever come across on any engine. This is what I think happened with the prototype engine on the test bed: Engineer 1: Ok, start her up Engineer 2: Here goes (Vroom vroom) Engineer 1: The oil light is on! Stop it quick! Engineer 2: OK (1 hour later, the sump is off) Engineer 1: Where's the oil pump? Engineer 2: That was your job! Engineer 1: I told you to do it! Engineer 2: Ok, we need someone to design one quickly before anyone notices. Engineer 1: I'll get the tea lady onto it right away. After all, she designed most of this heap of junk anyway... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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