Which Curent Draw

[jules]

I am playing with Ideas on the rebuild and need some info

4hp motor how much power does it draw

6hp motor how much power does it draw

Efi engine running how much does it draw

100amp Alternator how much does it actualy produce at say 2000revs

Will fitting a seconed Alternator add 100 amps is there any bhp issues (I have some 130amp Freelander ones sat in the shed doing nothing)

Big spots and so on.

Split charge, why is it any good how do they work eg do they let you run one batt down to dead leaving one spare to start the car with ???

I have always run Truck Batteries and want to go dry cell

I am looking into power requirment for the truck's new build I may as well get it right.

Please don't get on to the which battrey debate this is somthing new

[FridgeFreezer]

Jules - for the ultimate answer to all of those you need to phone Dave H really.

Looking at google & wikipedia:

HP x .7457 = power in kW

DC motors are typically 75% efficient

So...

4hp motor how much power does it draw

3729 Watts @ 12v = 310 Amps approx.

6hp motor how much power does it draw

5593 Watts @ 12v = 466 Amps approx.

Will fitting a seconed Alternator add 100 amps is there any bhp issues

There is a limit to how much power a single V-belt will take, not sure what it is though - the boys that run milemarkers would know

[BogMonster]

There is a limit to how much power a single V-belt will take, not sure what it is though - the boys that run milemarkers would know

Don't know about V belts but the guy who sent me a load of info on a twin pump setup reckons the serpentine belt is right on the limit driving twin pumps so presumably a V belt is going to be less. But I don't know how much power the pumps use so it's not a lot of good really....

[simonr]

You can drive about 10Hp through a single V belt (7.5 Kw) although it will try to catch fire at this (how do I know that? )

Polyvee can take about 25Hp depending on width and will handle 10Hp without getting too warm at all.

Anything higher needs a chain or toothed belt.

Split charge units fall in to three categories.

1. A relay which connects the two bateries together when the alternator is charging. These are the simplest, cheapest and most reliable. They will however allow you to discharge both batteries at the same time, however, because of the resistance in the contacts and extra connections, it will draw out of your main vehicle battery a lot slower than the winch battery. If your engine is not running, the winch will only draw from the winch battery giving a good chance of starting from the main battery.

2. Diodes. A diode is like a one way valve which lets power flow through it one way, but not the other. They are generally connected between the alternator and each of the batteries individually so power can flow from the alternator to each battery, but no power can flow between the batteries.

These have two (and a half) issues. Firstly, there is a voltage drop (about 0.7v) across each diode. This means that you are loosing some of the current that your alternator is trying to push into the battery. It's not a lot, but could be up to 10% lower. Secondly, diodes are sometimes killed by voltage spikes generated by things like starting, running motors, welding. Thirdly, getting a diode rated at a high enough current is expensive. 100A ones are about £40 each (for something decent). Most of the diode based split charges available will be fried by big alternators dumping big currents for long durations (like you get when winching)

3. MOSFET. These work in a similar way to diodes, but do not have as big a voltage drop (0.05v or less). They are the best solution, but they are expensive and tend to have circuitry built in to limit the current flow (so as not to be damaged by the high currents). Most of them do not go above about 85A - so you are still loosing a potential 15% of your max charging current. They are usually quite well protected from voltage spikes (but not all) and some are vulnerable to water ingress. Many come with charge management circuitry and displays of battery voltage and charge current - but at a price!

Si

[jules]

Ok so

I will need to read these a few more times to fully understand

So which system is the most popular and is that through good marketing or is it the best system.

I will be running with a V8 anyway so the water will be less but could still do deep waiding

I was told that there are other motors that can match the 6hp anyone know were how much and are they

any good.

I am not too willing to go for a hydrolic boost on the two 8274-50 I have, so what is the up to date best upgrade is Jim D90SV still the best man to talk to

I am asking these questions on subjects I don't know much about.

I have to do a write up for the mags after the build and upgrades so I will warn you prior.

Jules

[Tonk]

jules,

i've got a brand new 6hp xp motor if u're interested?

M

[dollythelw]

have a peek at the Fenner Website and you can do the drive calcs for the belt you want to use, wouldnt it just be easier to go hydraulic or PTO instead or running 'leccy?

[jules]

have a peek at the Fenner Website and you can do the drive calcs for the belt you want to use, wouldnt it just be easier to go hydraulic or PTO instead or running 'leccy?

My engine bay is packed allready and the Auto box transfure box will not take PTO.

It is a shame as a mate has just offerd me a pto super winch like PW runs but I don't what there worth.

Tonk

I would be very intrested but I am skint till mid March. which is when the build will start.

[dollythelw]

Im being a spaz here Jules but why wont you T box take pto?

[jules]

Im being a spaz here Jules but why wont you T box take pto?

Borge Warner T box

VC

I like it over the LT230

[Tonk]

Tonk

I would be very intrested but I am skint till mid March. which is when the build will start.

i can hold it if u're interested, will chat some time

[dollythelw]

ahhhh, no chance of a comprimise in order to run the winch? or go for a crank driven Type R pump? not a heap of space required for that - got one in the barn if you wanna peek next time you're passing?

[jules]

ahhhh, no chance of a comprimise in order to run the winch? or go for a crank driven Type R pump? not a heap of space required for that - got one in the barn if you wanna peek next time you're passing?

What work is required and what parts

I have never seen one working or in the flesh I have heard that the hydrolic upgrade on the 8274 is a very good one by I just don't know enough about them to make a dissision.

in basic turms what improvments do I get.

from this hydrolic add on.

any pics

[robhybrid]

Going twin alternator with one for vehicle and one for winches is the way to go in my opinion, you can allways fit a heavy duty link switch if one alt fails too

I go electric cause I can drive assist in any gear at any revs without is affecting line speed, winch rop also stays taught if the vehicle finds grip and drives forward.

Saying that the type r variant is getting closer

Now where did I stick that stirring spoon.

[dollythelw]

Type R will hammer an 8274 in terms of speed and power - no contest, when you press the go button it goes, take your finger off the button and it stops dead - no overun.

Water doest bother it - work just as well underwater as out of it.

ahh 26hp winch in place of 6hp

no battery management issues.

Works all day non stop.

have a peek HERE pop down and get Alan to demonstrate it

*just waits for the "it wont work if your engine dies" arguement to start*

[will_warne]

Type R will hammer an 8274 in terms of speed and power - no contest, when you press the go button it goes, take your finger off the button and it stops dead - no overun.

Water doest bother it - work just as well underwater as out of it.

ahh 26hp winch in place of 6hp

no battery management issues.

Works all day non stop.

have a peek HERE pop down and get Alan to demonstrate it

*just waits for the "it wont work if your engine dies" arguement to start*

Dolly, PM sent

[jules]

Type R will hammer an 8274 in terms of speed and power - no contest, when you press the go button it goes, take your finger off the button and it stops dead - no overun.

Water doest bother it - work just as well underwater as out of it.

ahh 26hp winch in place of 6hp

no battery management issues.

Works all day non stop.

have a peek HERE pop down and get Alan to demonstrate it

**

Ok so what happens with the rear winch I use the 8274-50 on the rear more than I do the one in the front so can the H12 run two winches or do I need two pumps sets

can I use both winches at once as I have done while competing before

How much are these winches yes the 8274-50's are good money second hand but I do have a limited budget which is why the Mags are covering the story to help pay for the work to be done.

Ok Guys you have got me thinking

I like to power when winching but I'm not a thwack I do know what I am doing to ease the load on the line etc.

What are the drawbacks of the hydrolic whinching.

just waits for the "it wont work if your engine dies" arguement to start

I have used my winch's when I have had engine issues before so errm

I am not shure my new sposur will like me going away from electric winchs when there a battrey manufacturer.

[dollythelw]

Ok so what happens with the rear winch I use the 8274-50 on the rear more than I do the one in the front so can the H12 run two winches or do I need two pumps sets

Not a problem, only one pump, needed - I ran a double type R, and Im using the same setup this year, an L port valve is used to select which winch you want to control so only one set of winch control buttons to play with and a lever (too many buttons confuse me)

Can you use both at the same time?

Not with the setup I used but by using a twin lever setup you could although pulling possibly ending up with two very very short wheel base landrovers instead of the one you started with is a distinct possibility

Drawbacks of hydraulic?

more spendy up front but lower long term running costs, potential hazzard from pulling trees down onto your roof (been there a lot), Type Rs will find a weakspot in your chassis if you dont secure them THOROUGHLY - ask Alan what happened at the 5 Pillers... I weld, he bolts

What happens if my engine fails?

A few things

People laugh

You get wet

Any way of getting round the lack of drive to the winch if the engine fails?

Yep - I have two back up systems, an electric power steering pump from a Toyota (£peanuts) and a third (leccy) winch mid mounted, either will get me out of trouble if the worse happens

Sponsor probs from a battery manufaturer?

no issue - their batteries will be proven faultless as they dont have to boil a kettle to pull you out of troub, hydro winch electric power consumption at full load = 2A

Jez setup = 0A as mine are good old fashion levers, I have to live in a pond for a long time so as little "lektrickery" as poss for me

Infinate variable speed is also built into my system as the valves work just like a hand throttle

[D9OSV]

Hiya,

Love all this...

Dolly i have yet to see a Tpye r beat an 8274 in ANY competition...........Disagree?

The type 'r' failed in russia last year and to the best of my knowledge wasn't exactly great in France in December.

Of course that is second hand info

The type'r' will undoudtably be a good winch (Like the pun?) When it's been finished and tested by those that can.....

But the fact remains (And this is missed by those'That can't') that drive assist and being able to feel for your winch is ever so important when using a winch for that that was NOT intended by the manufacturer.

Having a winch that will pull your house is undoubtably a great quaility in bottomless swamp Eg: Ladoga.

But for the Home nations, feel is required and that is where the tpye 'r' falls down.

But, i'm sure that it will progress into something that WILL beat the 8274........Eventually.

I am not being biased, cos' i will use the best system available

Jules,

If your fiitting a second alt, go 24 volt add another battery and leave your 12 volt circiut clear for engine and lights

This gives you a dedicated 24 volt winch system that is uncomplicated and very effiecent

Plus you can winch forever.

Before the critics jump down my throat.

Croatia last year i did a single line pull across a swamp (200ft including extension) Got the other side and the motor was barely warm.

The cars with hydrallics tried to follow but sank and had to go out backwards due to not being able to drive assist!

others tried across the middle and burnt out motors

Am not trying to blow my own trumpet. just trying to give you the REAL reason we use 24 volt

I hope this info is some use.

Regards

Jim

Ps: Give it time and hydrallics will win...............But not yet!

[jules]

Hiya,

Love all this...

Dolly i have yet to see a Tpye r beat an 8274 in ANY competition...........Disagree?

The type 'r' failed in russia last year and to the best of my knowledge wasn't exactly great in France in December.

Of course that is second hand info

The type'r' will undoudtably be a good winch (Like the pun?) When it's been finished and tested by those that can.....

But the fact remains (And this is missed by those'That can't') that drive assist and being able to feel for your winch is ever so important when using a winch for that that was NOT intended by the manufacturer.

Having a winch that will pull your house is undoubtably a great quaility in bottomless swamp Eg: Ladoga.

But for the Home nations, feel is required and that is where the tpye 'r' falls down.

But, i'm sure that it will progress into something that WILL beat the 8274........Eventually.

I am not being biased, cos' i will use the best system available

Jules,

If your fiitting a second alt, go 24 volt add another battery and leave your 12 volt circiut clear for engine and lights

This gives you a dedicated 24 volt winch system that is uncomplicated and very effiecent

Plus you can winch forever.

Before the critics jump down my throat.

Croatia last year i did a single line pull across a swamp (200ft including extension) Got the other side and the motor was barely warm.

The cars with hydrallics tried to follow but sank and had to go out backwards due to not being able to drive assist!

others tried across the middle and burnt out motors

Am not trying to blow my own trumpet. just trying to give you the REAL reason we use 24 volt

I hope this info is some use.

Regards

Jim

Ps: Give it time and hydrallics will win...............But not yet!

24v will recharge much quicker than 12v.

come on Jim your option if far better as I can use my existing pair of 8274-50's

I have some Freelander 130amp alternators in the shed at home, battries are not a issue all I need is to get the wiring issues clear in my head and I will warn you I can't wire for toffee Tonk will back me up on this one..

I am a Driver thats about it.

The V8 as two locations that I could mount a alternator or both and run a 24v system away from the main car battrey all together. if that is possible.

I need to be carful as I am getting myself lost very quickly

[dollythelw]

Always good to debate Jim, no worries there

Reasons for failure of type R's cited

France - chassis snap on Defender, no on board welder

Russia - first twin setup, insufficient fluid reservoir (my fault, not had time to test), completely outclassed car, no where near upto the job, - lessons learned went straight back to Milemarker and they implemented the changes straight away,

so this year we're building a new car specced for the conditions, fitted with the correct fluid capacity - this year will be much better

Thats first hand info

if new toys aren't tried, developed and improved then its going to be pretty formuliac offroading - hoards of 90's on Simex with 8274's and no ground clearance........ ah hmm

Yet to see an Type R beat an 8274 in the UK? - pass, I dont do competitions here but I will gladly come up and play at the AFC with whatever is left of the car after Ladoga and we can find out - gotta be worth a pint bet?? what do you want speed, power or longevity?

Drive assist comes as standard with a Type R so no issue there

Im not saying its the best system invented, but from an engineering point of view its massively more efficient. It will get better as its used and refined but not the achilies heel you think it is

Not sure about the feel issue - what do you mean?

Wont be at Croatia this year but will be next year so will pick your brains for info if thats ok? if you are doing the TAT then we'll most probably see you there, stop in on the way down and we can fight it out over some Parlinka B)