JST Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 am running an HP24. it has the wading plug fitted in the bell housing, fitted so well in fact that its been rounded on the top and wont come off. background: did some deep wading last week, bonnet depth. shes done 150miles since then all ok. then stood for 5 days at home. Got in her today to go to the HW Rd 1 event Symptoms: 1. starter didnt want to turn, but then did and fired up - like a normal stuck starter after wading and it not drying out - strange as it hand last until 5 days after but it was then left so maked sense at the time 2.on pulling away she had to rev really hard 3500rpm before would change into 2nd gear - never done that before including straight after the wading. 3. diff flock started to flicker on the way to event - an earth shorting me things? got there no problems all 50mph or less. Drive home - starter again sticking on start up but turned over and fired again when cold very hard revs before she will change up from 1st en route home road clearer so pushed on a bit but she is hesitant to go above 50mph unless dropping down a gear. Park up at home, unload. and then move her - notice a small amount of oil on the gravel. checked underneath. There is mucking red/brown fluid coming out the bottom of the starter area. so my guess is she has taken in some water in the autobox- god knows how (breather are all extended) its blown the front seal on the front of the autobox - is there one? and its leaked into the bell housing, cant go out the wading plug hole so has built up and now seeps out into and around the starter from where it leaks to the floor. hence sticky starter and also proving current path which then earths through diff lock switch. Would that follow? in other words - any other ideas? It would seem today is not my day for off roaders. So assuming that follows i will try and get the wading plug out tomorrow with luck and drain out the excess fluid plus drop the autobox oil - so pleased i had just changed it 500miles ago. Guessing its a box out job? which i believe (or was told) is a sump off job too (TGV) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 Is the autobox dipstick tube sealed? Bonnet deep is over the top of it and from memory they don't have an O-ring as such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted March 15, 2009 Author Share Posted March 15, 2009 it doesnt have one, its filled through the sump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 James, it does have a dipstick? It's the orange headed one in the engine bay. If it's not there then that would be a problem! If it is, pull it out and see what the oil looks like - it will be obvious if water has got in. If water gets into the gearbox then it will tend to kill the clutch packs so change the oil ASAP if you suspect it's an issue (drain out of sump and refill down the dipstick). Was the 1st gear issue worse than normal when cold? When mine was cold I basically had to take it up to the read line in 1st gear to get it to change up for the first time. I spoke to Dave Ashcroft about it (and he came for a drive in it to check it) and he told me this was normal for the ZF4 and was an issue they all suffered from. As far as the drain plug goes - guilty as charged. I tried to remove it once and it just was stuck solid..... I'm not sure whether it was in there or not before the box was rebuilt by Ashcrofts... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted March 16, 2009 Author Share Posted March 16, 2009 well got the wading plug out (eventually) and nothing came out so checked the autobox oil and it was clean (ie no water but a bit low) and it all looked good. dropped the oil to change it anyway. went for a drive all ok, still lacking top end, rest ok including changing up to 2nd at 2200rpm as it used to. came back went under to check the levels and the greyish/red tinge was back around the starter. Stuck a screw driver up the wading plug hole and was greeted with about 2L of water and ATF coming out! a bit of crud was blocking the hole. so front oil seal on the G Box must be the culprit. confirmed when you start her up and ATF starts to run out of the wading hole. so at least it explains the lack of umph higher up spped wise (the 2L of water surrounding the TC and flex plate wouldn't be helping with all that drag), plus the poor cold gearchanges - low level as it all leaked into the bell housing and it worked fine once topped up and even the diff lock light too as it came on again when it started coming out the starter area - a usual added bonus of the diff lock light it would seem! So next questions Do i need to drop the sump to get the TC off the flexplate? (TGV) i believe Will mentioned that you did next Engine out or gearbox out? former is certainly easier and if the front seal can be done in situ (dont know?) then engine may be the way to go. Anyone got the TC face measurement from the bell housing end for an HP24? PS - Will - gearbox sump has been changed for one with a level plug to stop the water coming in the dipstick hence it no longer has a dipstick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean f Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 TC bellhousing measurement vary depending on the particular HP24 box you have. Ashcroft have a helpfully list on there site. I just did a box in a P38 and there measurement was spot on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Murphy Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 I always find engine out is the easiest way to go, James. Mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted March 16, 2009 Author Share Posted March 16, 2009 TC bellhousing measurement vary depending on the particular HP24 box you have.Ashcroft have a helpfully list on there site. I just did a box in a P38 and there measurement was spot on. i did drop a line to Dave so am hoping he will be along soon with the font of all knowledge as normal but in the meantime where is the list, i couldnt find it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashtrans Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 well got the wading plug out (eventually) and nothing came out so checked the autobox oil and it was clean (ie no water but a bit low) and it all looked good. dropped the oil to change it anyway. went for a drive all ok, still lacking top end, rest ok including changing up to 2nd at 2200rpm as it used to. came back went under to check the levels and the greyish/red tinge was back around the starter. Stuck a screw driver up the wading plug hole and was greeted with about 2L of water and ATF coming out! a bit of crud was blocking the hole. so front oil seal on the G Box must be the culprit. confirmed when you start her up and ATF starts to run out of the wading hole. so at least it explains the lack of umph higher up spped wise (the 2L of water surrounding the TC and flex plate wouldn't be helping with all that drag), plus the poor cold gearchanges - low level as it all leaked into the bell housing and it worked fine once topped up and even the diff lock light too as it came on again when it started coming out the starter area - a usual added bonus of the diff lock light it would seem! So next questions Do i need to drop the sump to get the TC off the flexplate? (TGV) i believe Will mentioned that you did next Engine out or gearbox out? former is certainly easier and if the front seal can be done in situ (dont know?) then engine may be the way to go. Anyone got the TC face measurement from the bell housing end for an HP24? PS - Will - gearbox sump has been changed for one with a level plug to stop the water coming in the dipstick hence it no longer has a dipstick. Hi James, the box needs a 'freshen up' , 1) Will gave it some useage 2) Just been drowned, 3) you are going to have to pull it for the oil leak anyway 4) you are going to want to work it hard once refitted, I can post you out a seal FOC if you like but the last thing you want is to change the seal then have it die next week due to water contamination or another reason and have to pull it again, send it back with the converter for a rebuild, I will keep the costs to a minimum, Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 Oh dear, James :( That would explain the sluggishness Yes, you'll probably find the sump needs to come out unless you're very creative. The issue is the sump is too deep at the rear of the engine to get a socket through the inspection plate in the engine backplate to allow you to undo the TC bolts. Hopefully if no water's got into the oil damage should be minimal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted March 16, 2009 Author Share Posted March 16, 2009 Hi James,the box needs a 'freshen up' , 1) Will gave it some useage 2) Just been drowned, 3) you are going to have to pull it for the oil leak anyway 4) you are going to want to work it hard once refitted, I can post you out a seal FOC if you like but the last thing you want is to change the seal then have it die next week due to water contamination or another reason and have to pull it again, send it back with the converter for a rebuild, I will keep the costs to a minimum, Dave Thanks for the reply Dave, as the moment time and money are tight. the box didnt pick up any water and the oil in there is good so much so that what is now coming out of the drain plug is pure ATF. i am not convinced water did get in there now and think it was more likely just mixing with much in the bottom of the flywheel housing that gave it the initial colour. Engine out is certainly alot easier on this combination so will look to go with the seal option, i will drop you a line tomorrow. Will - is the extension in the sump just for oil or does it have other parts inside there too? ie once the sump is off is there anything in the way stopping me getting to the TC bolts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean f Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 i did drop a line to Dave so am hoping he will be along soon with the font of all knowledge as normal but in the meantime where is the list, i couldnt find it. Just checked there site and they don't even list HP24 box any more??. If you go to the HP22 box and read the fitting instructions towards the bottom there is a list of depths along with now to find the correct box number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashtrans Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 Hi James, I will post a seal down to you, Sean, the 4HP24 is under the 'Heavy Duty' section, but for the torque converter depth dimention it's just treated like a type 744, 22 or 24, this dimention is the same, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharger Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 James, if the sump route isn't appealing then the flex plate bolts on my 300Tdi can be wiggled out with a spanner through the starter motor hole. I've got an adaptor plate which might give me more room though but it's worth a thought? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Attryde Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 James, if the sump route isn't appealing then the flex plate bolts on my 300Tdi can be wiggled out with a spanner through the starter motor hole. I've got an adaptor plate which might give me more room though but it's worth a thought? My 300TDi is the same I just used a long socket and extension to undo the bolts. Used a bit of sticky tape to hold the bolt in the socket when putting it back together. Mine doesn't have an adapter plate as it's a factory Auto. Pete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted March 17, 2009 Author Share Posted March 17, 2009 Tim did mention doing it through the S/M hole. i need to know if the seal can be changed with the box in place first though will ring Dave later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted March 17, 2009 Author Share Posted March 17, 2009 Ashcroft TC depths Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted March 17, 2009 Share Posted March 17, 2009 James, I honestly can't remember if I had to remove anything else. I don't think so, though, as the pickup pipe should be easy enough to work around with a wobble bar. I'd give the S/M hole method a try first to see if it works as that would save the extra work of pulling and replacing the sump.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted March 17, 2009 Author Share Posted March 17, 2009 Good old Ashcrofts, parts are on there way and engine will be out with luck next week Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roverdrive Posted March 21, 2009 Share Posted March 21, 2009 Just pulled the engine on my 3.9 RRC on an auto box. The T/C bolts can be accessed by removing the plate covering the starter ring gear, and turning the engine to allow access to the bolts through the starter ring gear. Turn the engine to position the access holes alongside the sump. I used a breaker bar to loosen them and then turned by fingers. If you have arthritus, don't even consider it though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted March 25, 2009 Author Share Posted March 25, 2009 well you cant get to the bolts through the s/m hole - you can only just get the starter ring bolts. so sump off tomorrow. that aside shes ready to come out. hoping out and back in tomorrow - touching wood! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted March 26, 2009 Author Share Posted March 26, 2009 i stand corrected you can get at them from the s/m housing - wheres Gittins!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve 90 Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 i stand corrected you can get at them from the s/m housing - wheres Gittins!!!!!! I know, I know! I spoke to Jim earlier and he said it was different to a V8 set up and there could be smaller bolts in a ring around the outside as opposed to the 4 large bolts of a V8. If you do have these silly, smelly, sluggish tractor engines in your truck what can you expect! P.S. I did also say that there must be a reason they put the extra cut out in the starter motor hole as you wouldn't need to get to the ring gear bolts unless the box was out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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