Which is best.

[kingdong2]

Hi guys

thinking about buying a winch for my s11a for off roading use but don't know if to go for a capstan winch or an electric winch i know the capstan winch has a 4 tonne capacity and not sure if you can get a 4 tonne electric winch but if you can which would work best i don't really wan't to fit a big powerfull winch as i think it would do more damage than good aspecially if the back of the landy is strapped to a tree.

graham

__________________________

1962 s11a swb 200 tdi.

[landmannnn]

A 9,500lb winch is just over 4T, 9,500 being about the most common electric winch capacity. Capstan winches are great for that series retro look...

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

In really simple terms :

There is no such thing as a 'best winch'

It depends on :

How much you want to spend

How often your going to use it ...and

..What exactly you want to use it for

How tricky / simple you want the fitting of it to be

and how much / little maintainance you want to do / not do

Whats important around a winches 'traits' that you want....

....and similarly what you do NOT want

When the above is clear then a route or routes will become clearer

Nige

[FridgeFreezer]

What Nige said, there is no right answer.

Since it sounds like you're new to all this, there are a few basics though:

- No-one really uses capstan winches any more, they are more a tractor implement than an off-roading tool although in their favour they are cheap to buy, and will likely outlast any modern winch. Being engine driven they will also out-pull any electric winch.

- In the choice of conventional style drum winches you have the option of electrical, mechanical (PTO or engine crank driven), and hydraulic operation. The argument over which is best is ultimately down to personal choice and can never and will never be decided definitively on the interweb.

- For occasional off-roading use a cheap (usually decent 2nd hand) electric offers the best value and easiest install.

- A 4T rated capstan or other mechanical winch will pull far more than a 4T rated electric due to the rather generous way winch manufacturers calculate line pull.

- For more detail on anything else, use the search button, it really has all been done to death.

[tony109]

Capstan winches are not popular with the new Rav off road set.. But as for the max pull.. If you use blocks and good rope you can multiply the pull to as much as you need.. Doing this with a drum winch isnt as simple.. With a capstan you dont have to carry weighty steel rope on a drum around with you when not in use.. Steel rope can fray, then becomes sharp and dangerous especialy if you catch a glove in it, (no gloves should be worn for this reason) and if you dont correctly feed the rope back onto the drum this causes further chance of rope damage..

A capstan winch is easily controlled, but if you havent used before is not as simple as the more fool proof drum winch..

I prefer a capstan winch myself and as it spends 99% of the time not in use Im not needlessly carrying a heavy winch drum.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

A few years ago I was editor for a club mag - here is an article I found wot I wrote

some years ago - a few things have changed since then but it may still be worth a read :

Ok Folks - "The best winch" debate,

This is an article all about ‘winches’, and helps with your understanding of the different types, with the pros and the cons.

If your thinking of buying, replacing or adding a winch to your 4x4 this just may prove very useful.

Similarly having a solid understanding of the types of winches, accessories, add-ons, options and tweaks

will help your understanding and knowledge.

In the next 2 issues further articles (following this basic one) will look at both these options ie accessories and

add-ons & review some of the more ‘exotic winches’ in and around the club.

Tony Cordells is one example, a very nicely upgraded & reliable 8274. Having spoken to Tony he has agreed

to write the mag an article with some pics, so this sentence won’t come as a surprise to him.

Anyway before we get carried away on “exotics” lets return to basics.

First lets get a few rules straight. Magazines have a habit of talking in superlatives with “the Ultimate this” and

the “Best That” etc, absolute rubbish. Whilst I have a winch system which I have chosen (and yes its another

exotic, and yes I will add a bit to the future article at a later date) it is NOT “the ultimate”, nor would I accept

that there is such a silly badge.

ALL winches, and that includes “Specials and Exotics”, have ‘Pros’ & ‘Cons’, as such this and future articles

are written with this basic belief. Where one winch or winch system may have a real benefit, in another there

is a compromise or drawback, this is something many experienced winch users know and accept, never

don’t lose sight of this very simple fact and anyone who says otherwide - well walk away they are being a pratt

The other thing most agree on is that whilst there are good winches, very good winches and top winches,

there are some cheap ones, and with winches you do get what you pay for, …….cheap winches are not always as

good investment as maybe they seem at 1st glance

Why ?. Well, buy a “Cheap” winch, you’ll still spend quite a lot, then see how much you can sell it for later second hand,

you will often get a shock !. But, buy say something like a second-hand Warn 8274 and you can both sell it

again fairly easily, and get your money back.

So lets get started and have a look at the options.

Electric.

Probably just about everyone who is heavily into winching either has had, or has now an electric winch.

Often the starting point for many owners, electric winches offer easy simple, reliable, and in terms of some of the

other options, decent value for money too. You’ll notice I did not say cheap, there are some cheap winches,

I personally would keep my money, - but more of that later.

There are a vast range of electric winches, if you go this route do not underestimate what power to go for – a 6000 lbs winch

is not going to be as useful as a 9000 lbs winch. I have had conversations many a time with Suzuki drivers who say as their

4x4s lighter than a LR (true) a X6 (6000 Lbs) would be ok,. Hmmmm, maybe but a 9000 lbs would be a whole load better,

and would not have to work flat out, and frankly ‘go for more’, its not an clever idea to skimp power wise

The pros for electric winches ?...simple :

Good value vs Pulling Power, simple to install, choice, ease of maintenance, weight (some of the PTO

and mechanical winches listed below can be massively heavy !) , quick when you have finished winching

to respooling in the cable, and a range and choice of winch bumpers to chose from. Spares are easy and cheap,

and they need only a basic level of TLC.

They can be upgraded hugely - can have bigger motors, remote cordless controls for operation, and

even with a dead engine some pulling power still available, but don’t overestimate the draw on the battery

with a dead engine and a thirsty on electrical current winch working away !

So, what are the Cons ?. Well, they are electric, this means heat build up, the bigger the motor and the harder

the load on it and the longer you pull really hard then the heat goes up, as does the demand for amps !.

Big 9000+ winches can at full chat be requiring 400-500 amps continuously…and that’s one of the downsides.

You need to make sure your wiring and earths (often the cause if there’s a prob with it working) are up to scratch,

both in terms of quality and thickness.

An easy upgrade is to use welding cable instead of battery cable, far more flexible and carries higher amps for the

same appearance size of wire. Crimps on terminals need to be done properly, and you need to make very

sure things can’t short out !

Additionally the real ‘Pro’ of ‘price for pulling power’ can go into a ‘Con’ very easily as the £££ can jump as you ask for more.

Buy more ‘pulling power’ comes with some other extras - ie twin batteries maybe , or a real big truck battery ,

bigger alternator or even 2 alternators, split charge systems, bigger drive motors, and then heavier wiring, or 24V winch

and 12V engine with split 12/24v alternators etc etc etc ….you can gain a hugely improved winch, but - how deep is

your wallet , and maybe now you need fabrication skills, and special things made up ?

Some (not all) electric winches have internal braking systems inside the main units, and / or motors on the end of the drums,

this can generate heat as mentioned previously, and this is a bad idea for both winch life and say plasma rope should you want

to have it. Some winches that don’t suffer from this are therefore prized highly by those who know, that’s one reason why

you’ll see the 8274 warn (in its many guises) as a “Top Choice” winch, the options and variants and modifications on this

highly rated winch could easily be an article on its own !

Lastly, Husky winches are IMHO vastly undervalued, a top winch highly regarded by many, and earlier on I was talking

about cheap electric winches …….nope, for my money I would buy a second hand 8274, or husky or G10 or X9 any day……

Mechanical winches.

Not Capstans (they are really NOT a recovery winch, they CAN be used as such but its not a Capstans prime purpose),

here we are talking about the Mechanically powered ‘Drum’ winches.

Superwinch (and formally Mayflower) are the main ones for LRs you will come across, I say come across as these

will nearly always be bought second hand – why ?

1st possible ‘Con’ here – Superwinch H14W system new for a 90 or 110 Sir ? that will be £6500 + VAT please.

Yes you read that right £6500 !, second hand they can be obtained for a fraction of that dependant on model and

application (Series 2 3 90 110 RR etc) £250-£1500+ At this sort of SH price they are often comparable to a “Decent”

Electric System. So why so cheap second-hand, and what the ‘Pros’ and ‘Cons’ of these then ?

POWER. ! My god they are powerful. Driven from a unit attached to the back end part of your transfer box, then via

a series of rods and U/Js bearing and brackets it moves this massive mechanical pulling power from the back of

the gearbox right up to the front – to the winch, and there’s another “Con”.

These are NOT a 5 minute weekend fit. Often these units can be old, and missing bits, or have bent rods, worn out U/Js

and these bits can be expensive to replace and certainly bits are a tad specialist – PG winches is a good source for bits

tho – I know from past experience.

Fitting these will require you to make modifications, make bits, change bits, make brackets, oh and welding etc,

and it will take time for a well fitting one. Overhang and weight are another couple of ‘Cons’, with skill the overhang

can be overcome, but the weight may mean changing springs to make the ride height come back where it was

before the winch was mounted !

BUT, ask an owner why they have one and they will often say “….ah well……they don’t have the downsides of electrics,

dead batteries cables alternators etc, they will pull massively and will pull all day long and not get hot, it will pull harder

for longer than an electric winch and once sorted is ultra reliable…………….”. All true.

However, for compromise they accept that apart from ‘Cons’ above there’s the extra one of a

Dead engine = No winch capability at all – Period !.

Oh and you’ll need to change U/Js, grease bits, and generally ensure its kept tip top and ready for action.

Lastly with these winches if you use the power they can exert you’ll need bigger cable / plasma, snatch blocks, shackles

etc as they will break them !, oh and lastly your winch bumper will need to be HD ….or things bend !

Hydraulic.

OK, cards on the table - I’m a lover of these, as many know – “ultimate ?” – no, ………….don’t be silly !

Pros – MASSIVELY POWERFULL, with some even more than the mechanical ones, this equally means so are all the Cons,

including a new one of even higher costs and complexity.

There are really 2 types in this section, the classic Milemarker, and the other Hydraulic PTO “Winch”.

The Milemarker has a dreadful reputation in terms of speed, and it is deserved.

In cheapest basic form, driven off the PAS pump “Painfully Slow” is only a dream, its worse than that – but – and it’s

a huge ’Pro’, its pulls so hard, ….so very hard, …..more than many electric winches, but without all the electrical “Cons”.

Oh, and as with mechanical winches - dead engine = Oh dear !.

MileMarkers can have a dedicated pump, yes ok, that’s sort of like asking someone if they would prefer to be shot

or driven over, neither is an attractive option. The dedicated pump and for all its hype is still dreadfully slow,

more like a snail vs a snail on amphetamines.

To really get a MileMarker to perform your into a PTO route, (Power Take Off) and now the ‘Cons’ come back in,

cost, complexity, fabrication etc etc etc….and your also back into the specialist area again

Have a look at the number of pipes on my 90 for my twin hydraulic unit – took 3 months to make everything and fit it

and get working. Oh, and a 30 litre tank of fluid gets lugged about, and you have to find somewhere for it too …..costs – the

winch on mine…. JUST the winch unit…… no pipes, tank, PTO, control blocks, over centre valves, fluid, rope or anything

other than the basic winch - set me back £1200 + <gulp> but the maintenance is far far less than mechanical ones, as no UJs.

Yep - Dead engine = Absolutely no winch, or in my case WINCHES !!.. beginning to see through the various 4x4

magazines “Ultimate” nonsense now ??

And winch line speeds are slower than electrics. The speed of the cable going on the drum is the same, doesn’t matter if its

pulling at full power or just spooling back on, whereas electric the speed is proportional to load. With electric pull hard and it pulls

the slower, no load for things like respooling and the speed is fast !.

Lastly, On PTO winches (both mechanical and Hydraulic) ‘drive assist’ can be a real issue. It is next to impossible to do it easily – if

at all, and whilst with the sheer power of the PTO units you can argue you don’t need drive assist (True) you sometimes need it

for ‘fine tuning’ in positioning yourself…

But, I do love them, I love the sheer (sometimes literally) power they shove out, and for what I want its my choice.

Many would disagree, and I respect them for their choice, they will often equally respect mine.

So, there you go

HTH

Nige

[Bowie69]

Nice post Nige, might be worth including in the Tech Archive as a 'Brief summary on winch choice', could save a few repeats of questions....

[FridgeFreezer]

Or the short version:

[bill van snorkle]

I believe the LandRover capstan winch was only rated at 3000lbs. Never owned one but know they used to break a lot of shear pins in the 1950's and 60's when they were common and about the only winch available for LandRovers cept for the excessively complex 5000lb MAP hydraulic drum winch.

Bill.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

^^^

Ah Yes the dear old 'Mayflower'

Spent many an unhappy hour screaming at one that refused to play

Nige

[tony109]

With a capstan using a block a tacle will muliply the pull many times and reduce the load on the winch.

Land rovers Range Rovers used for the 1971ish Darien Gap expedition used Capatan winches, So they can be/were used for recovery as well as any other jobs required

[errol209]

My contribution to the developing "LR4x4 guide to winch selection" is to plead that anyone who fits an engine or PTO driven capstan or drum winch (e.g. one that continues to revolve without user intervention, like pressing a switch or holding a lever over) fits a simple emergency stop / engine cutout (by interupting the ignition or fuel solenoid).

It is extremely easy to get the "tail" of the capstan winch rope driven over during a self recovery, jammed under the other turns or wrapped round a leg. A big red panic button is your friend in times of need, and the driver generally can't see a drum winch from the cab.

Otherwise, my two penneth' is to comment that capstan wiches are great for pulling other things all day where huge loads and speed aren't an issue, but they do take a little more user skill than a drum winch.

[kingdong2]

thanks everyone for the imput think i mite going electric instead as most peops seam to faver the electric drum winch over the capstan winch my main concerne with the electric winch is that in some cases they tend to overheat if they are being used for long periods or pulling at full capacity so was thinking if i do go electric would i be better going for a 16.500lb winch instead of a 12.000lb winch would my galv chassis cope with it if i did pull to full capacity and also what thickness does the winch plate need to be.

graham

________________________

1962 2a swb 200 tdi.

[FridgeFreezer]

Graham - I'd strongly suggest (again) using the search function as all your questions have been answered many many times before. 12000lb is already overkill, and since you haven't answered the questions of what you'll be using it for / what you want it to do it's very hard to say what you may or may not need.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

^^^^

Wot he said, doubled... and then squared ....just to be sure

Nige

[Jon White]

On my series I've had in the following order:-

Warn M8000

Mayflower PTO drum winch

Warn 8274

The M8000 simply doesnt have a large enough drum. If the cable bunches up at one side (as it usually does cos you rarely get a perfectly stright pull) the whole lot just jams itself up.

The Mayflower would pull a house down, but was sooooooo slow, especially re-spooling the cable. Also the inability to drive assist and the faffing about to control it was a pain. They're also soooooooo heavy!

The 8274 is far and away the best winch I've had on it. Small, light, with a decent sized drum, and I've not yet needed to double line it. I've uprated mine with a 6HP XP motor.

Jon

[kingdong2]

Graham - I'd strongly suggest (again) using the search function as all your questions have been answered many many times before. 12000lb is already overkill, and since you haven't answered the questions of what you'll be using it for / what you want it to do it's very hard to say what you may or may not need.

sorry fridge yeh want to use it for self recovery and assisting other peops on off road sites / green laning if i or they get stuck and need help.

graham

__________________________

1962 2a swb 200 tdi.

[Bowie69]

9500lb would be more than enough then.

Get a TDS from David Bowyer and you're laughing.

[kingdong2]

Hi guys

ordered a 12.000lb extreme terain winch from ebay the other day and it came yesterday so i will be fitting it soon then i can try it out.

graham

__________________________

1962 2a swb 200 tdi.

[Milemarker Type S]

I love it when people ask questions and then completely ignore any advice they are given...

[antichrist]

The 8274 is far and away the best winch I've had on it. Small, light, with a decent sized drum

x2.

I have 3 of them, in addition to a Ramsey RE10000 and a Koenig PTO. My first 8274 I've been using for over 30 years and it's a great winch. They go really nice on a Series Rover as well. There's room to mount them behind the bumper so they are pulling exactly in line with the chassis.

[kingdong2]

x2.

I have 3 of them, in addition to a Ramsey RE10000 and a Koenig PTO. My first 8274 I've been using for over 30 years and it's a great winch. They go really nice on a Series Rover as well. There's room to mount them behind the bumper so they are pulling exactly in line with the chassis.

yeh there only an 8.000lb winch arn't they mines a 12.000lb winch.

graham

__________________________

1962 2a swb 200 tdi.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

You'll find thats prob a very "Theroetcial 12,000 lbs"

One of those bench quotes with battery at 100%, once used for

2 secs - internal resistance and current draw sees something very different.

On the front of a landy winches shoved into gloop last differrntly, from quality being built to

take it to Chinese stuff that seizes up solid after a water dunk and become scrap, whilst

this may sound as if having a pop I'm not but I have seen so many cheap winches end up being

thrown away - literally. I hope it does what you want, but agree with others that a decent S/H winch ie a

used 8274 will highly likley out perform it in the real world, have spares available if needed,

work every time you need it to, and will have a value should you ever upgrade it, and last

On a personal note on anything I buy I tend to lose interest very quickly

proportionately to words in the product description such as 'Extreme' or 'Ultimate'

If its the one I have seen from Ebay at around £200 then its fair to say you wouldn't / couldn't buy

a S/H decent winch (Husky / 8274 etc) for anywhere near that money, so may be a case of

what the wallet will stretch to, whatever the reason FFS pull it apart often and service the ****

out of it so it works the day you really need it to

Nige

[Jon White]

Hmmmmm right - an entire winch with a wireless remote that cost less than the motor on my 8274.......

As Nige says - thats a very theoretical 12000lbs. I'll be interested to see what you say in a years time!

At the end of the day, you pays your money and takes your choice. For occasional, self recovery use of a relatively lightweight truck, you'll probably find it is perfectly adequate for your needs. However fr eavy duty use (I do a fair amount of marshalling for example) I think you'd struggle.

i'd certainly be interested to see an independant test done of the claimed pulling power of these winches cos I very much doubt they'll come anywhere near where they're quoting! Warn only quote 8000lb for a similar winch with a similar sized motor, and I'll lay money on which winch has the better quality motor!

Jon

[kingdong2]

Hmmmmm right - an entire winch with a wireless remote that cost less than the motor on my 8274.......

As Nige says - thats a very theoretical 12000lbs. I'll be interested to see what you say in a years time!

At the end of the day, you pays your money and takes your choice. For occasional, self recovery use of a relatively lightweight truck, you'll probably find it is perfectly adequate for your needs. However fr eavy duty use (I do a fair amount of marshalling for example) I think you'd struggle.

i'd certainly be interested to see an independant test done of the claimed pulling power of these winches cos I very much doubt they'll come anywhere near where they're quoting! Warn only quote 8000lb for a similar winch with a similar sized motor, and I'll lay money on which winch has the better quality motor!

Jon

Hi jon

no i was just curius as i think it was landyman that said the 8274 is a 9.500lb winch which he says works out about just over 4 tonne warn say its an 8.000lb winch and mine is a 12.000lb winch rated at 4 tonne so i was trying to work out how a 8.000lb / 9.500lb winch is rated at 4 tonne the only thing i can think is that warn sell a 12.000lb winch as an 8.000lb winch knowing that it will pull 12.000lb so when the owner trys it at over the stated 8.000lb they are amaized i totaly agree what you say about my winch as it is a cheep chinese winch but it is my first winch ( starter winch ) so once i have lerned how to use it then i will probably buy a 8274 at a later date.

graham

_____________________________

1962 2a swb 200 tdi.