CountryGent Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 It is probably along way off but as I am starting my 110 conversion a thought came into my head 'what do those lucky people with the new and fancy winches think of them against a Capstan winch? I know that there is a wide range of winches to suit most budgets but I wanted to know if people thought there are benefits in having a Capstan winch over the nice electricery stuff? Are there any benefits to some one like me who will be the occaisional user (hopefully!) - probably just me pulling a mate out or self extraction!! and not likely to be in any serious competitions/challenges. How simple is the install respectively for the electric winches - special bumpers, additional wiring, extra battery etc and what is needed for the Capstan? How heavy (approx) are they, are they reliable, part availability etc? Any thoughts either way... Cheers for your time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat_pending Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 A capstan will stick out a long way on a 110, weighs a lot, requires special rope, not realy suitable for self recovery. There are plenty of good electric winches, new and 2nd hand for reasonable money, that can be mounted fairly discreetly. IMO, an electric would suit you far better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milemarker Type S Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 I second all that has been said above- for a lot less money and hassle you can get a new electric winch. I would personally recommend the TDS from David Bowyer- there are cheaper options but you may find that they wont work when you need it most! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean f Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 A capstan winch is not suitable for self recovery. It can be done, I have done it in the past, but since you have to stand in front (or to the side) of the vehicle to work the rope if you get unstuck suddenly you may end up having to dive out the way to avoid getting run over by your own vehicle. For recovering others or general working they are fine but with the cost and ease of use of electric winches now that realy has to be the way to go. A second battery and split charge system is generally recommended but for only occasional use not realy worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puffernutter Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 A capstan winch is not suitable for self recovery. It can be done, I have done it in the past, but since you have to stand in front (or to the side) of the vehicle to work the rope if you get unstuck suddenly you may end up having to dive out the way to avoid getting run over by your own vehicle. For recovering others or general working they are fine but with the cost and ease of use of electric winches now that really has to be the way to go. A second battery and split charge system is generally recommended but for only occasional use not really worth it. You don't have to stand in front and the design of a Capstan winch is that when you let go of the tension, the pulling will stop. As long as my engine is working, I can recover and continue to recover as long as I have diesel, I plan to fit (but haven't yet) a hand throttle on the front as well. I don't need to have a split-charge system or find a home for a second battery or have to stop winching when the battery is flat. It does stick out a long way, but if you're first in a space in a car park, you get a lot of respect from the other side! Oh and mine cost me £50 (secondhand) and fitted in an afternoon - no extra wiring needed either ! Cheers Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 Capstan winches have their place - pulling cables through ducting for example where an unlimited length of rope can be used, but I wouldn't bother with one for self recovery, apart from anything else using it single handed (and keeping safe control of the vehicle) would be somewhere between effing dangerous and downright impossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sparkes Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 How times change. The standard crankshaft driven Fairey winch I have just weighed on the bathroom scales is ~27kg. Any rope is kept separately of course, so is not included in that weight. When making comparisons don't forget to add the rope weight to the weight of the bare electric winch. I understand your choices are heavy but cheap steel rope, or light but expensive plasma type rope. Either type is 'tied' to your winch, and is difficult to use for any other purpose. A Capstan rope is available for any other purpose, and is normally hidden from view, although whether it's any more secure is a debatable point :-) For the capstan, which rope is 'best' depends on the bollard design, which changed over the years, and between manufacturers. Some work best with Polyester, some with manilla. eBay seller '1970-2a_landrover' markets both. Read the text with Item number: 180398503715 for more information. Ebay search terms +winch +rope get you enough variations to do a price comparison between Steel, 'Plasma', and 'Capstan' ropes. Looking back at Land Rover publicity material available in the 60's, 70's, 80's, they certainly said a capstan winch was suitable for self recovery. They also gave a maximum pull of 2500 lb. Standard Capstans were shaft drive, either off the engine crankshaft, or off the Transfer box PTO, with a shaft running forward alongside the engine. Higher pull figures were available using a hydraulically driven capstan winch, typically fitted to GPO vehices, and having a taller bollard - to get more turns of rope on. HTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountryGent Posted September 7, 2009 Author Share Posted September 7, 2009 You don't have to stand in front and the design of a Capstan winch is that when you let go of the tension, the pulling will stop. As long as my engine is working, I can recover and continue to recover as long as I have diesel, I plan to fit (but haven't yet) a hand throttle on the front as well. I don't need to have a split-charge system or find a home for a second battery or have to stop winching when the battery is flat. It does stick out a long way, but if you're first in a space in a car park, you get a lot of respect from the other side! Oh and mine cost me £50 (secondhand) and fitted in an afternoon - no extra wiring needed either ! Cheers Peter I did like the look of your winch on the 110 - especially with the extra metal work surrounding it. Definately would be given respect in the car park! Also like the idea of not being tied to any extra wiring, batteries and specialist winching rope etc etc...but most of all the price is just brill! Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountryGent Posted September 7, 2009 Author Share Posted September 7, 2009 How times change. The standard crankshaft driven Fairey winch I have just weighed on the bathroom scales is ~27kg. Any rope is kept separately of course, so is not included in that weight. When making comparisons don't forget to add the rope weight to the weight of the bare electric winch. I understand your choices are heavy but cheap steel rope, or light but expensive plasma type rope. Either type is 'tied' to your winch, and is difficult to use for any other purpose. A Capstan rope is available for any other purpose, and is normally hidden from view, although whether it's any more secure is a debatable point :-) For the capstan, which rope is 'best' depends on the bollard design, which changed over the years, and between manufacturers. Some work best with Polyester, some with manilla. eBay seller '1970-2a_landrover' markets both. Read the text with Item number: 180398503715 for more information. Ebay search terms +winch +rope get you enough variations to do a price comparison between Steel, 'Plasma', and 'Capstan' ropes. Looking back at Land Rover publicity material available in the 60's, 70's, 80's, they certainly said a capstan winch was suitable for self recovery. They also gave a maximum pull of 2500 lb. Standard Capstans were shaft drive, either off the engine crankshaft, or off the Transfer box PTO, with a shaft running forward alongside the engine. Higher pull figures were available using a hydraulically driven capstan winch, typically fitted to GPO vehices, and having a taller bollard - to get more turns of rope on. HTH Thanks for that David certainly was an interesting read for item number 180398503715. The vendor sounds like they have taken the time to test the rope and Capstans to get some reasonable results. Probably the biggest thing as you say is how things have changed from the 60-80's where the capstan winch was suitable for self recovery to present and most people being of the opinion that they are not suitable. Well I guess I will have to do some proper research and see what I think is the best way forward to suit my requirements. Cheers Gavin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 If we want to be pedantic and hark back to the days when leaf springs and drum brakes were cutting edge, turbos were nasty things that went bang a lot and electricity was nasty and not necessary because there was a perfectly good starting handle in the back and put your back into it man, then you can argue a case for them. Of course it can be used for some type of self recovery - it sure beats pushing. However I would argue it is not really ideal for a whole pile of everyday situations particularly those involving one person who gets stuck alone. (No need for lectures on how you should not go off road without another vehicle or person blah blah - real world here - can, do, sometimes get stuck, don't much care for walking). A modern conventional drum winch is just so much more versatile in most typical self-recovery situations plus of course the fact you are not standing next to a rope under lots of tension is probably a good thing. The capstans I have seen (Superwinch) hang down a mile underneath which gives its own problems, if it is PTO driven you can't really drive assist with it (certainly not if you are standing outside the vehicle holding the rope!), some of them have very restricted line pull as mentioned, etc etc etc I could think up lots of other reasons it wouldn't be ideal but I am going to bed instead I actually have a fondness for capstan winches and they really look right on a vehicle, but the point is there are better ways to easily pull yourself out of a bog nowadays in the same way as there are better ways to fly around the world than a Tiger Moth, not to say you shouldn't buy a Tiger Moth (I'd like one of those too) but don't buy it thinking it is still the cutting edge in air transport A winch for £50 fitted is a good argument and it may well suit for occasional light self-recovery especially if you have a fondness for doing things the old fashioned way, there is nothing wrong with enjoying that. Personally with the type of self recovery I usually end up doing, a capstan would be no use to me at all. Tin hat on and waiting for some Spark(e)s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sparkes Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 No problem Steve, I was just presenting the other side of the story. I did start 'How times change'. After both sides have been aired, with factual information, like the weight and the pull rating, and the cost of the winch plus rope, it's up to the OP to decide which suits best. Ironically, the '£50' doesn't weigh that heavily with me. If the chosen winch is not fit for the circumstances then it's not fit. Even if only cost £50 it's still not fit, and it's £50 wasted. I happen to think that's a very low price, which is not common. Right place, right time applies. Nor do I adopt a holier than thou standpoint about driving alone. I do it, why shouldn't you. We are grown up, why shouldn't we take responsibility for our own decisions. Mind you, wherever I get stuck I am probably always nearer what passes for civilisation than you are :-) (With the empasis on distance, not the degree of civil behavoir!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean f Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 If we want to be pedantic and hark back to the days when leaf springs and drum brakes were cutting edge, turbos were nasty things that went bang a lot and electricity was nasty and not necessary because there was a perfectly good starting handle in the back and put your back into it man, then you can argue a case for them. Of course it can be used for some type of self recovery - it sure beats pushing. However I would argue it is not really ideal for a whole pile of everyday situations particularly those involving one person who gets stuck alone. (No need for lectures on how you should not go off road without another vehicle or person blah blah - real world here - can, do, sometimes get stuck, don't much care for walking). A modern conventional drum winch is just so much more versatile in most typical self-recovery situations plus of course the fact you are not standing next to a rope under lots of tension is probably a good thing. The capstans I have seen (Superwinch) hang down a mile underneath which gives its own problems, if it is PTO driven you can't really drive assist with it (certainly not if you are standing outside the vehicle holding the rope!), some of them have very restricted line pull as mentioned, etc etc etc I could think up lots of other reasons it wouldn't be ideal but I am going to bed instead I actually have a fondness for capstan winches and they really look right on a vehicle, but the point is there are better ways to easily pull yourself out of a bog nowadays in the same way as there are better ways to fly around the world than a Tiger Moth, not to say you shouldn't buy a Tiger Moth (I'd like one of those too) but don't buy it thinking it is still the cutting edge in air transport A winch for £50 fitted is a good argument and it may well suit for occasional light self-recovery especially if you have a fondness for doing things the old fashioned way, there is nothing wrong with enjoying that. Personally with the type of self recovery I usually end up doing, a capstan would be no use to me at all. Tin hat on and waiting for some Spark(e)s This was pretty much what I meant, but perhaps worded better, as said I have used a capstan for self recovery when out on my own but a drum winch is so much easier (and safer). Also a capstan takes some knowledge about now to use them safely and correctly especially when it comes to holding a load, a drum winch is simpler (safer??) and involves less technique, although can still be done dangerously if you try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Fair enough David Sean - you have a good point there - no offence to any of the above posters but as a general comment, when you look at the things some people do with drum winches the additional options available for the same people to use a capstan winch for personal dismemberment are much greater Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountryGent Posted September 9, 2009 Author Share Posted September 9, 2009 OK alot to think on to say the least By the time I get the money to buy a winch I expect we'll be back to the Capstan being the best option Thanks to every one who contributed to the pot.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirkthe1 Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 perhaps im barking up the wrong tree but if its only for occasional use, could you not just get hold of a decent small tirfor? they do the job perfectly and then you dont have any metal on the front of your truck!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tychoS Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 perhaps im barking up the wrong tree but if its only for occasional use, could you not just get hold of a decent small tirfor? they do the job perfectly and then you dont have any metal on the front of your truck!!! A Tirfor will pull your vehicle in any direction you want, forward, backwards, sideways, upwards, diagonally etc. A Tirfor works when the engine and batteries are dead. A Tirfor can be used to turn annoying bystanders into helpfull recovery muscles, or make them leave you alone A Tirfor will work every time, partly because it's stored nice & dry inside the vehicle, perhaps in a nice alubox or similar, not outside the car constantly splashed with salty water in winter. A Tirfor can be used for pulling and lifting tasks in locations you cannot or must not get your Land Rover into A Tirfor is cheaper than most drum winches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountryGent Posted September 10, 2009 Author Share Posted September 10, 2009 perhaps im barking up the wrong tree but if its only for occasional use, could you not just get hold of a decent small tirfor? they do the job perfectly and then you dont have any metal on the front of your truck!!! No you're not barking up the wrong tree at all. As part of me digging round for options a hand operated winch is definately on my list of possibilities. I especially like the idea of one because I don't have to worry about any wiring issues, mounting it, buying special bumpers etc etc. So a definite maybe which ever way I go as I like to over engineer things where possible! Thanks for putting another idea my way... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Tirfors are great and everyone should have one. However, for recovering a vehicle, where there is access for a vehicle mounted winch, you won't want to do it twice....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountryGent Posted September 10, 2009 Author Share Posted September 10, 2009 A Tirfor will pull your vehicle in any direction you want, forward, backwards, sideways, upwards, diagonally etc. A Tirfor works when the engine and batteries are dead. A Tirfor can be used to turn annoying bystanders into helpfull recovery muscles, or make them leave you alone A Tirfor will work every time, partly because it's stored nice & dry inside the vehicle, perhaps in a nice alubox or similar, not outside the car constantly splashed with salty water in winter. A Tirfor can be used for pulling and lifting tasks in locations you cannot or must not get your Land Rover into A Tirfor is cheaper than most drum winches. All very valid points! Especially like the bit about turning annoying bystanders into recovery muscle!! But the two best bits as you say (IMO) are the fact that you can use it any where and they are cheaper than most drum winches.. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountryGent Posted September 10, 2009 Author Share Posted September 10, 2009 Tirfors are great and everyone should have one. However, for recovering a vehicle, where there is access for a vehicle mounted winch, you won't want to do it twice....... Having helped a mate do just that within 5 miles of the last recovery I DEFINATELY agree I now make sure that he surveys where he's going before he 'just guns it' - his terminology not mine!! BTW Love Canada - only briefly went through Calgary on the way to Banff, Whistler etc for skiing and boarding..fab country. Had one of the best hot chocolates in the Grizzly Bear in Canmore!! Great restaraunts in Banff as well... Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puffernutter Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Having helped a mate do just that within 5 miles of the last recovery I DEFINATELY agree I now make sure that he surveys where he's going before he 'just guns it' - his terminology not mine!! BTW Love Canada - only briefly went through Calgary on the way to Banff, Whistler etc for skiing and boarding..fab country. Had one of the best hot chocolates in the Grizzly Bear in Canmore!! Great restaraunts in Banff as well... Thanks As somebody has stated earlier my capstan winch (Fairey) came along at a very competitive price and it was a case of buying that then and having some form of recovery, or probably not buying an electric winch for a very long time. I don't do a huge amount of off roading and it's more useful gettting me (or the caravan) out of very boggy agricultural showgrounds when attending dog shows (see www.whissgig.co.uk for my other hobby!). Cheers Peter Currently in Beijing missing his dogs and his Land Rover - and the wife :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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