Electric land rover re-power

[Ruuman]

Not thinking in some eco hippie way, electric motor power is really starting to catch my attention. Electric bikes, boat's and car. I can see a point in 30 years where internal combustion simply won't be able to function. Anyway say I want to re-power my 200tdi defender to run on batteries and charge from the mains.

Now here's my take on it, admittedly my knowledge is very limited on electric systems and especially the high amperage's and low voltages you deal with.

Now most modern electric cars have dispensed with the clutch and gearbox etc and have a fixed final drive. In my mind I'd like to retain all the land rover transmission, rip out the engine, make up an adaptor plate and connect the motor to the input shaft.

Now my understanding about electric motor's are you get a flat torque curve, so I'm guessing the complex bit will be matching higher RPM of electric motor to match the land rover gearing, thus I imagine some sort of gear reduction between the motor and gearbox will be required. This will allow the use of a relatively low powered motor compared to other electric car which are on offer at the moment.

Performance-wise It would need to match or be close to the defenders current speed and acceleration, range is probably dictated by how many batteries I could fit and what type, but the further the better obviously.

So what do you guys think?

[Night Train]

Great idea.

No problem putting a motor where the engine used to be and using the standard gearbox and transfer box. You can do it with or without a clutch and flywheel and you will have loads of space for batteries under the seats and in the wheel wells.

The motor can be directly coupled to the gearbox without further gearing as the gearbox will do all that for you.

A series wound DC motor will be the simplest and cheapest to set up and a three phase AC motor will be the most complex and expensive but gives the ability for regeneration.

Note that without regen the DC motor spins freely on the over run so there is no 'engine braking' at all. You will need to rely on your brakes.

Motors can be found in fork lift trucks. You will want to find one that is 48v or higher, 60+ volts is good. It will need to be around 9" to 11" diameter and have many long commutator bars on the armature. The brushes should be around 2 1/2" - 3" long. They will only run at 1700-2200rpm but if you over volt them then doubling the voltage doubles the rpm.

A 60V 2200rpm motor could be run at 144V and 5200rpm if the brushes are advanced by turning the end cap of the motor for example.

Another factor is the comparison of power. An electric motor with 20-30kw is more then a match for a 100bhp petrol engine. Added to that the maximum torque of a series wound DC motor is at 0rpm and is considerably more then most clutches can cope with. You will be able to pull away in 2nd and do all your urban driving in the one gear. Change up to 4th for motorways. The motor will run at highest efficiency when at its maximum rpm so you will want to try and keep it there.

What you will need to do is work out how much weight you can shed from the Defender so you have as little weight s possible. Then you need to consider how much range you need, not want but need, and how fast you want to be able to drive.

Also you need to consider the budget. The most expensive thing is likely to be the batteries. For a decent range and speed you will have to look at Lithium (LiFePO4) batteries. For my Toyota MR2 conversion I am looking at £8k to £10k for the batteries. The cost is justified by the life of the batteries and is a bit like buying all your diesel for the next ten years in advance and then only paying £1.50 for each 70 miles driving at 70mph.

If range isn't too much of an issue then Lead Acid is usable though heavy.

Have a look at www.diyelectriccar.com (also see my link in my sig) and you will see a lot of people converting all sorts to electric. It is a great resource for knowledge and expert advice. If you want to look further into this then it is worth joining and asking some questions there.

Also Simonr, here, has an electric Freelander so he is also worth talking to.

[simonr]

As Night Train says - I built an electric Freelander.

Join www.DIYElectricCar.com and have a look here: My Freelander write-up

I've now driven it just over 1000 miles on electric - and it's just brilliant! I used cheap Lead Acid batteries - and only enough to give me about a 10 mile range (only need 4 miles to get to work).

I considered a Defender but decided it was just too heavy. Even stripped to the bone, it's still heavy compared to a monocock. I thought about a Series which is a bit lighter - but same applies.

Mark Catchpole (one of the mods) has a dismembered freelander on his ramp and looking at it I realised how modular and bolt together the design is. That made it dead easy to adapt (running on petrol to running on electric took less than 2 weeks). Compared to many cars, it's still heavy at 1.2 Ton - but it's a good compromise.

LiFePo batteries are worth it if you want big range - but if you can live within 40 miles per charge - lead acid will cost 1/4 as much - and you can always use batteries from a junk yard to get you going as I did (which cost £3 each).

Best option is a big forklift motor and up the voltage to 96v or even as high as 150v. You'll probably have to buy a speed controller and charger as they are fairly difficult to build. If you can do electronics, my charger design is here.

Since youre not far away, why don't you come visit? I'm in Horsham.

Si

[Ruuman]

cool, thanks guys, really interesting info there, joined the site, I definitely need to do more reading up on overvolting electric motors. my experience runs to burning out my old scalelectrix's cars. It's surprising how cheap a used forklift and charger go for.

Simon I'd definitely like to see your installation, I'm out of action at the moment with a busted shoulder and cracked ribs. But as soon as I'm mobile again would be great, I might have to buy some more of your shiny wares at the same time

Cheers

Ruu

[Night Train]

I look forward to seeing you on DIY Electric Car. I'm Woodsmith over there.

Not land Rover related but have a look at Plasma Boy drag racing White Zombie on YouTube to see what a couple of motors and a few batteries can do.

[zoltan]

When wheel motors come of age the off road market could be a big beneficiary with no axles to worry about and with adaptive suspension geometry, traction in all conditions.

A small turbo diesel running at its peak torque connected to a generator.....

Imagine how light that could be built

[zoltan]

What are you using for speed controllers?

[Night Train]

What are you using for speed controllers?

I'd like to use the Solton1 or a Zilla 1K but I think at my budget I will be looking at a Paul and Sabrina's open source kit.

[Night Train]

When wheel motors come of age the off road market could be a big beneficiary with no axles to worry about and with adaptive suspension geometry, traction in all conditions.

A small turbo diesel running at its peak torque connected to a generator.....

Imagine how light that could be built

The Enertrac outrunner is worth watching as it is currently a motorbike wheel motor with plans for car wheel use. 10kw and 30kw peak, per wheel, I've suggested to him to stack the motors so they can run in pairs or triples. Unlike other wheel motor manufacturers this chap, Mark, is happy to sell single motors to anyone.

[Night Train]

I just found this blog that you might want to read. The chap is converting a Series 3 Land ROver to electric.

[TeriAnn]

I think it is a great idea who's time has not yet arrived unless you are wanting just a short distance vehicle.

One for a short work commute or that goes out to the nearest town for groceries or whatever no more than once a day. Those you can cobble together using a bunch of car batteries or a couple of gulf cart batteries. I took a ride in such an electric Fiat in the mid 1980's. It works fine for a short range vehicle that drives a short distance and sit for hours on a charger. It would be a fun and likely very gratifying project for someone who needs only a occasional (once a day or less) short distance trip.

But for longer distances I would wait. There are companies and universities spending a great deal of money developing the technology, motors, charging systems and batteries for reliable long distance electric cars. Once they are in production costs go down, technology improves as users gain experience and parts become available at the local breaking yards.

[Night Train]

I think that perception is a little outdated.

Cobbled together with car batteries is no good (except for Simonr ). Proper deep discharge lead acid batteries are used but also LiFePO4.

Have a look at This video of White Zombie.

My conversion is looking at a range of 70miles at 70mph in order to meet my commuting needs.

[TheRecklessEngineer]

I love this idea. When I finally leave studentdom I fully intend to build some sort of EV. Not entirely sure yet, but strapping a huge motor into a series appeals somewhat.

Some good links and interesting posts here. Cheers guys.

[The Badger]

I have been thinking about this allot, I thought a series 2 as I love the idea of it being a soft top and a mix of old and new.

I even thought about a modified chassis that was either made of ali or titanium, but then my bank balance came into play and I realised that I need more money to even come close, but the thing is, it can be done.

So I think if you had 30k in you back pocket and wanted to make a electric car, you could and it would be damm good and a future investment, when I say future, don't think from a self perspective, its not the way to go. The future is for all of us, and I want my kids to be able to breath, eat and live just the same.

Ok, sorry if it is a green rant, but I can't help but say that we don't need to change much, just the way we consider things, Cradle to cradle is a good term in relation to green issues, as it's the idea of making something that is useful for all it's stages of life, I.e a book that when you are done with it, you plant it, it biodegrades and has tree seeds in it and fertiliser so it grows more trees, to make more books... or something.

Anyhow, I was also thinking of a lightweight? Or just building parts from a lighter material.

It' a good idea, but hey so are Air powered engines...

[Philip Tonkin]

How about connecting the motor directly to the transfer box. Gearing may need to be changed and you will still have high low and even more space for batteries under the bonnet.

Deep cycle batteries are easily accommodated in a 90 with the configuration above. I did some quick sketches of a design a few months back using and Advanced 9" motor and at 144v. I found space for 24 Yellow Top Optima's Below the floor (TD5 tank position, in the wheel wells, 4 in the seat boxes and the rest under the bonnet. Still leaving loads of space on top for the controller.

[Philip Tonkin]

Anyhow, I was also thinking of a lightweight? Or just building parts from a lighter material.

Aren't lightweights heavier than a normal series before you still the parts off them to make them air portable?

[Night Train]

How about connecting the motor directly to the transfer box. Gearing may need to be changed and you will still have high low and even more space for batteries under the bonnet.

The general case for direct drive is to have around a 6:1 ratio between the motor and wheels in a car. For a Land Rover you may want a lower ratio to allow for the weight and the larger diameter wheels. This will allow the motor to run at a higher RPM as unlike and ICE electric motors are more efficient at higher RPM.

Slow speed running will cause the motor to pull very high current causing over heating. One way around this is to use siamesed motors. Loads more torque too, so maybe straight onto the transfer box will do.

Joined with a coupler

http://photos.plasmaboyracing.com/albums/buildsequence/Dual_Motors.jpg

Or factory made

http://photos.plasmaboyracing.com/buildsequence/Siamese8?full=1

[elbekko]

I'm still amazed at people thinking electric cars with batteries are somehow good for the environment. Adding to the obvious of generating the power, there's the manufacturing of the batteries, which isn't exactly the cleanest process there is. You also have to put these batteries somewhere, and you can't forget they weigh a *lot*.

Diesel generator driving an electric motor (or more than one) is an affordable start with current technology, and at least it keeps some of the noise going

Fuel cells (be it with hydrogen or kryptonite, don't care what the current technology is at) are more in the right direction, and seem to offer excellent power with little storage space and weight. If I'd be building an electric LR (and I plan on doing so in some sort of distant future), this would be the way to go for me.

Basically, my plan would be:

* RRC

* Fuel cells or Diesel generator under the bonnet

* In-wheel motors kept in place by something closely resembling portals (just to not have to do IS, although when you're computer controlling all of the stuff anyway, you can just as well computer control some air suspension to mimick that)

* Touch-screen controls for what I describe below

* Diffs can be emulated, so can diff lock

* Low gearing can be enabled by making the accelerator behave differently - electric motors should have a flat torque curve anyway, and by the time this is possible, I'm sure in-wheel motors should have plenty of torque to accomodate this

I've done a very little bit of research on this, and most of what I describe is perfectly possible, but hellishly expensive.

[Night Train]

It's not just a misguided thought that electric is green or 'eco', there is much more to it then that.

Whatever your thoughts on the environment it cannot be denied that fossil fuel will eventually run out and will polute while in use.

Electric drive is more efficient then the existing ICE and mechanical transmission elements and many people are doing a lot of R&D into how to improve the affordable end of the EV market.

Granted there are a lot of environmental issues around battery manufacture and disposal but there is as much, if not more, issues regarding oil.

Granted also that there are issues around coal powered generation and the 'long tail pipe' issue with electric vehicles but if the vehicles are there then the methods of generation will become cleaner over time.

Hydrogen is a bit of a red herring at the moment as, between the power station and the car, hydrogen adds another stage to the process and all the losses that come with energy conversion. Until hydrogen is made using less energy, compressed using less energy and transported using less energy, it is all added losses.

In the future vehicles will be powered with electricity, regardless of how it is generated or stored.

Some of us are just getting ahead of the game.

[The Badger]

The thing is, batteries will keep on being produced regardless of what happens with cars, it will be just more of.

And this process is less harmful to the world and less destructive than the oil industry, i.e you don't need to destroy rain forest to dig oil, or scrap away half of Canadas tundra to mine oil sludge, etc etc

Also once you have battery, the life span is much better than diesel or oil, and fuel cell, so long term you win, and you win by loads. It's weird when you work it out.

And thats the way to think, long term. Fuel Cells are as bad as petrol or diesel, the process that goes into making one is immense, you need a hell of allot of electricity, and then still you are tied to consuming a "brand". This is why exon mobile are pushing it so, i.e Mr G Bush, his company....

Electricity can be generated by yourself at home, for free in the long term, brandless. There are hundreds of battery makers in the world, there is only two fuel cell manufactures.

On a power source, I read an article about a car that run off laptop batteries, this is very clever as these are constantly evolving, much quicker than most gel batteries.

Oh, I don't know if a lightweight is heavier, I assumed it was, but don't know....

[Bowie69]

Yep, a 'lightweight' is heavier, all the extra fixings, removable gearbox crossmember, oil cooler add up to about 100Kg more IIRC. 

[The Badger]

In relation to a elc version, is it body, gear and transfer box, chassis and axels.

I would still be gunning on a soft top 90 or series 11 if I had some cash to embark on the electric conversion.

If so, you can save weight by using the new 09 spec wheel arches and wings, they are ABS plastic, or use carbon fiber stuff, bonnet and wings.

[Night Train]

A lot of the weight saving will be from what you remove.

All the engine, fuel and exhaust system adds up to a lot of weight.

The adaptor and coupling could also save weight is you use aliminum plate for the adaprtor and then use a fixed coupler instead of the flywheel adn clutch. You may even be using lighter weight wheels and tyres and replacing the bumper and those sorts of bits and pieces with light weight or smaller parts. Winches and jacks can be removable and only fitted when you know you will use them for instance.

Anything that you can remove will help in reducing weight and that will not only give the motor an easier time reducing current demand but also allow you to have more batteries if you need them. It all really comes down to what you want to do with the Land Rover. Simonr's is a good example of short range possibilities using minimal cost and components.

[Lando]

The question of weight has come up a couple of times and I would tend to agree with the couple of posts suggesting that a Defender might just be a bit too heavy to get any decent use. A Series would probably be better and if possible, one of the ultra lightweight, ex-parachute regiment military ones. With the cut-away arches and all that. They look so cool too. Only beef with them is the lack of creature comforts. And if you don't live in sunny Southern California or somewhere like that, the lack of weatherproofing might be a bit of a drag.

There are modern options though. Obviously, beyond all but the brightest engineers amongst us to actually build for ourselves but damn cool none the less. Over the next few years, I'm really excited about the environmental developments that Land Rover will be rolling out. If you were looking to integrate a bit of DIY battery power, there's some food for thought in their concepts. They've integrated an Electric Rear Axle Drive so when the vehicle moves off under light acceleration, the system uses electrical energy stored in a battery to drive away without starting the engine. If you want to accelerate harder, the engine kicks in. Then, when you take your foot off the accelerator, or brake lightly, the energy is captured using the rear axle and stored in the battery.

Anyone who's got more of a head for these things than me, (which isn't tricky!) got any thoughts on knocking this kind of system up yourself? Here's where I read about it...

http://www.landrover.co.uk/gb/en/about-us/our-planet/our-planet.htm?p=1496

I'm a fan of their eco facebook page and that's where I got the link from. Check that out too. It'd be great to get a bit more chat on there. I think it's just www.facebook.com/landroverourplanet

[elbekko]

Whatever your thoughts on the environment it cannot be denied that fossil fuel will eventually run out and will polute while in use.

Electric drive is more efficient then the existing ICE and mechanical transmission elements and many people are doing a lot of R&D into how to improve the affordable end of the EV market.

I'm not denying this

Granted also that there are issues around coal powered generation and the 'long tail pipe' issue with electric vehicles but if the vehicles are there then the methods of generation will become cleaner over time.

With all the hippies that seem to control everything that still think nuclear is bad, this won't be happening.

Hydrogen is a bit of a red herring at the moment as, between the power station and the car, hydrogen adds another stage to the process and all the losses that come with energy conversion. Until hydrogen is made using less energy, compressed using less energy and transported using less energy, it is all added losses.

And there isn't a massive amount of converting going on with power from the socket, you think? It doesn't really add another stage, there are already machines on the market that produce plenty of hydrogen for a regular car by connecting it to a tap and putting up a solar panel. Google it if you wish.

The thing is, batteries will keep on being produced regardless of what happens with cars, it will be just more of.

And this process is less harmful to the world and less destructive than the oil industry, i.e you don't need to destroy rain forest to dig oil, or scrap away half of Canadas tundra to mine oil sludge, etc etc

I don't see the difference really. In the beginning they didn't need to destroy the rain forest to dig oil, they just ran out. What do you think they'll do when they run out of lithium at accessible places? That's right, go look under some trees.

Also once you have battery, the life span is much better than diesel or oil, and fuel cell, so long term you win, and you win by loads. It's weird when you work it out.

Not sure what you mean by this, batteries generally don't seem to have that good a lifespan.

And thats the way to think, long term. Fuel Cells are as bad as petrol or diesel, the process that goes into making one is immense, you need a hell of allot of electricity, and then still you are tied to consuming a "brand". This is why exon mobile are pushing it so, i.e Mr G Bush, his company....

Electricity can be generated by yourself at home, for free in the long term, brandless. There are hundreds of battery makers in the world, there is only two fuel cell manufactures.

This is why I said it isn't really viable yet, a lot more research needs to be done yet. With this should come more companies producing them, better and cleaner ways of producing them (it's already getting there, last I read), ...

On a power source, I read an article about a car that run off laptop batteries, this is very clever as these are constantly evolving, much quicker than most gel batteries.

Most car batteries are built on this technology.