Electric land rover re-power

[landroversforever]

17 minutes ago, Gazzar said:

Plus the huge factor of surplus electric at night costs virtually nothing. This, alone, overcomes the inefficiencies of charging a battery to charge a battery. When renewables dominate the supply having batteries will really help moderate the grid.

But that ‘surplus’ energy at night will no longer be surplus any more as the demand goes up? 
 

My biggest gripe with the whole electric thing is access to charging... all of the new estates built round near me have loads of cars parked in the road, mostly nowhere near their house. So until a sensible home charging solution is found for that I can’t see how it’s going to work. 

[Bowie69]

6 minutes ago, landroversforever said:

My biggest gripe with the whole electric thing is access to charging... all of the new estates built round near me have loads of cars parked in the road, mostly nowhere near their house. So until a sensible home charging solution is found for that I can’t see how it’s going to work. 

Yes, for years round here they have built houses with only one car parking space. The result? Well with the government forcing both parents back into work, the household needs two cars, one of which ends up on the road. 

I guess it means more profit for the builders, not having to incorporate two parking spots into their plans. 

 

[geoffbeaumont]

1 hour ago, Bowie69 said:

Yes, for years round here they have built houses with only one car parking space. The result? Well with the government forcing both parents back into work, the household needs two cars, one of which ends up on the road. 

I guess it means more profit for the builders, not having to incorporate two parking spots into their plans. 

 

May not be always be down to the builders - I know of at least one estate where the council stipulated only one parking space per residence, which was apparently a generally policy (at the time, may not be now) aimed at discouraging car ownership. It was a dense estate with a lot of flats, so the result was a nightmare, including for residents of the older estate behind it, which is now accessed through the newer estate. It can be hard at times to pick your way between all the parked cars.

[Bowie69]

Yep, very true Geoff....

[Cynic-al]

I bought a new build house in 2004, one of the stipulations of planning was two parking spaces. The builders classed the garage as one space, except they were tiny and everyone used them as a shed, which meant a car on the road at every house. I didn't have a garage and as my house was on a bend I actually ended up with a drive long enough for 3 cars. However they were all in a line so you were always having to go out and swap things around. There was also a 10 year covenant in the contract with the builder which meant that you couldn't alter the front appearance of the property without their permission, so you couldn't pave the grass at the front without their say so. Although I'm sure once all the plots were sold they would be less interested in the appearance. 

We are leading the way with off shore wind at the moment, although China is set to overtake us. The problem at the moment is they have to be anchored to the seabed which limits where you can put them. There are two test sites around the world where they are testing floating wind turbines. There are 5 installed somewhere near Perth I believe oop norf and 3 installed in Portugal. They claim if they would there is the space to practically install enough to overcome the worlds energy requirements 7 times over. I'm not sure what that would mean for a grid though. I know we have connections to Ireland and France but I wonder if it would need to be more global, or lots of batteries? 

This is a nifty little site to see how we are doing: https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

[Snagger]

On 2/13/2020 at 6:00 PM, Bowie69 said:

You can program the cars via wifi as to when to accept charge, what charge level you would like (80% charge helps the life of the batteries), and all sorts of things you won't find useful, but there's huge amounts of technology involved in these Teslas

These new battery types can be charged to 100% and run down below 10% without the damage that causes Li Ion batteries.

The national grid will be enough for those with parking spaces the way it stands now - the amount of power a house consumes with the lights on, an oven cooking while the fridge, washing machine, dryer and tv are on is pretty heavy, so the housing grid isn’t going to trip because of a few million folk charging cars overnight, and on a national level, most factories, shops, recreation centres and office buildings are using a fraction of their normal energy.  Only public charging stations will need any significant infrastructure because most cars will be charged at home.  The infrastructure and power generation capacity argument is a false flag.

[Bowie69]

1 minute ago, Snagger said:

These new battery types can be charged to 100% and run down below 10% without the damage that causes Li Ion batteries.

Partially correct, you don't want to store them at 100% charge or below 60% charge or they start to eat themselves.

80% is seen as the goldilocks point where you still have decent range.

'These new battery types' are just Lithium Ion 18650 cells in most cases.

[Snagger]

7 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

Partially correct, you don't want to store them at 100% charge or below 60% charge or they start to eat themselves.

80% is seen as the goldilocks point where you still have decent range.

'These new battery types' are just Lithium Ion 18650 cells in most cases.

No, these new types are not in cars yet - I meant the solid state and sodium based batteries in lab development, some of which should be entering production late this year or next year (Bentley have a deal with one of the developers).  As I understood the articles, they have few of the limitations li ion batteries have, especially charge percentages and temperature effects on longevity.

[Bowie69]

1 minute ago, Snagger said:

No, these new types are not in cars yet - I meant the solid state and sodium based batteries in lab development, some of which should be entering production late this year or next year (Bentley have a deal with one of the developers).  As I understood the articles, they have few of the limitations li ion batteries have, especially charge percentages and temperature effects on longevity.

Yes, but in reality it is probably 3 years away.

[Snagger]

Quite possibly.  The li ion battery in my crystal ball overheated and died... 😉

[FridgeFreezer]

5 hours ago, Snagger said:

The national grid will be enough for those with parking spaces the way it stands now - the amount of power a house consumes with the lights on, an oven cooking while the fridge, washing machine, dryer and tv are on is pretty heavy, so the housing grid isn’t going to trip because of a few million folk charging cars overnight

Are you sure about that?

Many EV's charge at ~10kW - a domestic electric oven or shower unit might be 5kW and not running for more than an hour or so, a house full of LED/CFL lights might use 1kw, a fridge might be ~300W, a washing machine might use 3kW while heating water for a few minutes and then ~500W to spin the drum... unless you're plasma cutting in the garage all night you'd struggle to draw 10kW in your house for very long.

Tesla Superchargers are 150kW, Porsche Taycan charges at ~10kw on domestic supply or 270kW on 800VDC but only for ~25 mins.

[Gazzar]

10 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Are you sure about that?

Many EV's charge at ~10kW - a domestic electric oven or shower unit might be 5kW and not running for more than an hour or so, a house full of LED/CFL lights might use 1kw, a fridge might be ~300W, a washing machine might use 3kW while heating water for a few minutes and then ~500W to spin the drum... unless you're plasma cutting in the garage all night you'd struggle to draw 10kW in your house for very long.

Tesla Superchargers are 150kW, Porsche Taycan charges at ~10kw on domestic supply or 270kW on 800VDC but only for ~25 mins.

If you are refilling the battery every night this is true, but that's an unusual scenario.

Most people will trickle charge their vehicle.

So the load will be lower.  No need to rework the entire grid at all.

One other thing that might become a feature is feeding back to the grid when a vehicle is parked at work.

V2G might be a lucrative way of helping pay for a vehicle, when every parking space has a charge point.  Train station carparks, already near sub stations, are ideal for this. Set your safe range, and return the surplus electricity to the grid during the day at the pool rate. Charge at night on night rate, and profit, despite the inefficiencies.

 

The big challenge that I see is trying to harmonise the plethora of charging and payment schemes without setting up a monopoly. Too many apps.

[David Sparkes]

10 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

... Many EV's charge at ~10kW - ...

The previous comments were about charging at home and this response is simply inaccurate.

When charging via a 13 amp socket the current is limited to 10 amps, so 2.2 to 2.3 kW. It is true to say this might go on 'all night', certainly a longer continuous high current draw than other domestic apperatus. It's recommended that only the highest quality sockets, plugs, and wiring is used, because any slight heating through high resistance points can cause significant problems.
Nevertheless, many people do still charge their commuting cars via this method. Viability depends on how much power needs to be replaced in the battery, and that predominatly depends on personal circumstances.

The standard domestic specified Charge Point, fed by single phase, is rated at 7kW.
This is what I now use, and it runs over a dedicated circuit rated at 30Amps.
Again, length of charge depends on how much power needs to be replaced in the battery.
Personal circumstances again come into play, the user may not need to fully recharge the battery if the next days use is just 'nipping to the shops for domestic supplies'. The charge can be completed after the domestic shopping is completed.

If a 3 phase supply is available then higher rates of charge can be used, IF the car and its charge lead are suitably rated to cope
I don't consider 3 phase to be in common use for domestic premises; those who run a business, and live on or adjacent to the premises, might take 3 phase charging rates into account when choosing their EV.

Regards.

 

[Cynic-al]

I think it will be a case of do it and try to keep up. From April the BIK on fully electric company cars is going to be 0%, 1% from April 2021, 2% from April 2022. As a comparison a person earning £30k a year with a BMW 320d company car will pay an additional £360 a month in tax for the perk of driving that car to earn their living. From April a Tesla Model 3 long range will cost them £0 in tax, from April 2021 £8.57 a month, April 2022 £17.14 a month. Based on that I'm sure we will see a lot bigger uptake as who doesn't want a £300 a month pay rise? I'm sure that take up will feed into the charging network and the development of additional vehicles. 

I think the charging will go down the industry 4 type connected system to allow charge rates to follow generation but they haven't standardised the smart meters yet so I think thats some way off. Possibly the biggest change needed to the generation network is getting the energy in land from all the off shore wind farms that are going ahead. That and upgrading the existing networks robustness, our power was off at work from 7.30 last night, they had to send the night shift home and restart at 6am. It's pretty common sadly. 

I looked at doing a trip to europe in an electric and the number of contracts i would need for the different charging companies is annoying too. There are some umbrella companies which allow you to use multiple charge points but it needs more work. 

[Arjan]

"...The infrastructure and power generation capacity argument is a false flag.."

Well, I beg to differ...

Both in Holland and France it is impossible in most places these days to get a charge facility at home on the existing infra structure.

Here in France, it is a major obstacle to get EV accepted.

EDF told me very clearly I will not get enough capacity in the next 10-15 years as it means total rebuild of the grid.

As they make money by selling me electricity, I guess they should know.

 

 

[Gazzar]

In the UK there is a grant from the government, I expect the French experience is more typical worldwide.

[Arjan]

Is going to be a serious grant if at the end of a 20 mile power cable I need to charge an EV......

 

[Cynic-al]

You could put up a wind turbine! Or do what one of the car programs did and tow it behind an F150 so that the regenerative braking charged the battery. 

[Snagger]

4 hours ago, David Sparkes said:

The previous comments were about charging at home and this response is simply inaccurate.

When charging via a 13 amp socket the current is limited to 10 amps, so 2.2 to 2.3 kW. It is true to say this might go on 'all night', certainly a longer continuous high current draw than other domestic apperatus. It's recommended that only the highest quality sockets, plugs, and wiring is used, because any slight heating through high resistance points can cause significant problems.
Nevertheless, many people do still charge their commuting cars via this method. Viability depends on how much power needs to be replaced in the battery, and that predominatly depends on personal circumstances.

The standard domestic specified Charge Point, fed by single phase, is rated at 7kW.
This is what I now use, and it runs over a dedicated circuit rated at 30Amps.
Again, length of charge depends on how much power needs to be replaced in the battery.
Personal circumstances again come into play, the user may not need to fully recharge the battery if the next days use is just 'nipping to the shops for domestic supplies'. The charge can be completed after the domestic shopping is completed.

If a 3 phase supply is available then higher rates of charge can be used, IF the car and its charge lead are suitably rated to cope
I don't consider 3 phase to be in common use for domestic premises; those who run a business, and live on or adjacent to the premises, might take 3 phase charging rates into account when choosing their EV.

Regards.

 

This is what I meant - it’ll apply to the bulk of owners.  As you said, a lot of houses won’t have the three phase supply for fast chargers anyway.  Realistically, how many owners will need a full charge every night?  They’ll be able to use a plug-in charger for a a half charge or less.  Even for those who need more power, that is better than having a jerrycan of petrol at home and they’ll be able to get plenty of charge to reach a high speed charger.  I think we’ll see a lot of workplace car parks fit chargers if there is a tax incentive.  Time will tell.

The point is that for the average driver, the existing system is already sufficient but will improve.  For those without domestic charging, new battery tech will make it at worst the same as having to fill up with fuel.  In the fifteen years before ICE new car sales are ended, I think we’ll see EVs become more practical for the majority than ICE, and hopefully become cheap enough to be more financially viable than ICE currently is.

[Snagger]

2 hours ago, Arjan said:

"...The infrastructure and power generation capacity argument is a false flag.."

Well, I beg to differ...

Both in Holland and France it is impossible in most places these days to get a charge facility at home on the existing infra structure.

Here in France, it is a major obstacle to get EV accepted.

EDF told me very clearly I will not get enough capacity in the next 10-15 years as it means total rebuild of the grid.

As they make money by selling me electricity, I guess they should know.

 

 

There will always be exceptions to every rule, but for the majority of people, living in towns or villages, the infrastructure is going to be adequate.  Not ideal, just adequate.  But it’ll mature.  How many petrol stations now exist in very rural areas, though?  How far do you have to go to fill up (rhetorical - obviously different for everyone, but for most the answer is a considerable distance).

[FridgeFreezer]

25 minutes ago, Snagger said:

There will always be exceptions to every rule, but for the majority of people, living in towns or villages, the infrastructure is going to be adequate.

That's a bold assumption - I've been in a situation where the local substation couldn't support turning on all the heaters in a building and it was by no means a rural backwater. A lot of our infrastructure is quite old and designed for a very different usage profile, and running a load of extra copper about the country is not cheap or attractive - even if there's space for it, which there often isn't.

[Cynic-al]

Before we got our own substation at work we had a strip across the car park which never froze regardless of how cold it was. That was where our old electric supply ran. Then imagine that with 20 electric cars plugged in. A lot of premises don't have enough electric and the land lords won't upgrade, the tenant has to pay. Then pay more rent as they are now in a better building.

The difference at the moment is I don't need the jerry can at home as I can set off in the morning, stop for 5 minutes and add 400 miles range to the car. The electric option currently is stop for 40 minutes and add 100 - 300 miles range. I don't want to do that in a morning, or during the working day (although it's going to be the next excuse!), or on the way home. So I have to be able to charge 2 - 3 cars at my house fully overnight for most journeys and I want a range of 500 miles. So it has to charge faster than 40 minutes away from home or have a real range of 500+ miles before I can say it compares to the car I have now. 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Cynic-al

[Ex Member]

Residential power supply here is 24 kW minimum with most new installs being 48 kW. No rural supply would be less than 48.

Normal level 2 installs would be 7 to 12 kW. I've not heard it ever being an issue.

The biggest issue with electric cars today is the cost.  They are very expensive compared to ICE cars.

[mad_pete]

It’s very solvable though. I’m sure some places would take some upgrading but if you are in a low juice area keep your burny smoky boom engine that little bit longer.

 

[Cynic-al]

I think if you compare a new Tesla to a BMW, Mercedes, Audi etc they're comparable. Not sure how leases compare, I've always preferred to buy cars but I don't think electric are developed enough to risk being stuck with something worthless as something better is released. Things like the little Nissan Leafs are significantly more then the equivalent Nissan Micra so I would agree there. 

It is solvable, it just takes £££ and time. The problem the UK has over less developed countries is that we have an age old infrastructure. Take internet services for example, for years we have been trying to limp on a copper wire network designed for analogue voice and find ways to force lots of digital data down it. Less developed countries don't have that history so they're skipping that technology and going straight to something better. 

I remember a few years ago the power company were trying to upgrade the power network somewhere along the M4, put new lines in somewhere in the Bath area / Hills & Downs. The public objections were huge relating to spoiling the view. They wanted it all under grounding or not at all, what we have works etc etc. I don't know what happened in the end but imagine that wrangling all over the country and all completed by 2035? And paid for by whom? It would have to be private sector as the state won't fund it. They've been building a 200 mile railway for 10 years and only just put a spade in the ground. A charging network would probably have been a better use of money too.

I think for it to work they will have to sort the connected chargers so that they can manage the charging of the car based on generation country wide. You pick a time you want it ready for and the longer you give it the less a charge costs otherwise everyone will just say they want it as soon as possible.