Maverik Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Hi again, 84Reg 90 with retro disco 200Tdi: Ok devloped this problem a while back, but only able to start fix now. Symptoms started out as, engine was surging, it couldn't keep constant revs. then it started to lose power when you throttled it. The lower the revs the less lumpy the tick over. It was very difficult to drive as it kept surging. Its starts fine, usual bit of blue smoke. No oil in water, or bubles etc, with the oil cap off, no pressure or vapour smoke coming out. Checked intercooler, dry as a bone. Turbo dump valve, fine All large bore hoses, fine - no colapses. Drianed some water from the fuel filter. Thought could be lift pump, just changed it out, now no power at all now, when you depress the throttle it just goes flat. Now seems to be puffing out blue smoke when you do this. can barely get it into 2nd gear. Have just also noticed that the oil level is down a bit. Am i looking at a head gasket here or piston rings?? I did notice this (pic attached) this is the exhast side of the turbo (not had vehicle long) - previous owner had just had a new turbo put on as it evidently it had "gone". This could be a sealent used on the exhasut outlet but not sure, anyone got any idea's? I'm at a bit of a loose end now, not really sure what to do. anyone want to swap it for one that works... I'm ithcing to drive it as not really had the chance it broke... got galvanised chassis, lots of armour, winch... at least its not rusting while it sat on my driveway. Mav Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD5 power Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 hi your symptoms sound very much like a dead turbo, the replacement the previous owner put on doesn't look new and is leaking fairly badly from the oil drain so the replacement could have failed. Have you taken the pipe off the turbo intake side to look for oil / lots of free play in the turbine shaft? If the turbo looks okay there is a chance the intercooler and intake manifold still have oil in them from the turbo failure and is being sucked into the engine giving some of your symptoms a good clean may help. Did the power drop noticeably when you changed the lift pump? if so i think you've probably got some air in the lines still and systematically bleeding from the lift pump through the system to the injectors. HTH matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 Did the power drop noticeably when you changed the lift pump? if so i think you've probably got some air in the lines still and systematically bleeding from the lift pump through the system to the injectors. matt Or you've not located the arm of the new lift pump properly on the cam that drives it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD5 power Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 hi i think you would have to work fairly hard to incorrectly fit the lift pump though anything is possible. Was it the correct lift pump part no should be stc1190? Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 hi i think you would have to work fairly hard to incorrectly fit the lift pump though anything is possible. Was it the correct lift pump part no should be stc1190? Matt I agree, but i've heard of it being done so it was worth mentioning. The other thing to consider related to your post is that IIRC there are two types of pump - one with a spacer the other without. Fit the one meant for no spacer with the spacer and the arm may not engage on the cam at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD5 power Posted December 18, 2009 Share Posted December 18, 2009 hi when i posted i had a quick look in microcat and it appears that there is only one for 200tdi engines however microcat has been known to be wrong, the only very unlikely possibility is the new pump comes with a new spacer and you end up with two spacers fitted but i don't know if the bolts are long enough for that. matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evolwood Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Not sure about the pic as it could be many things.. Problem sound like crappy fuel or its dragging air into the fuel line. This could also explain why it got worse when you changed the lift pump as you will of disturbed the pipework. Easy check is to get a bic pen without the tiny hole in the side and cut the narrow end off. Then insert this into the fuel line prior to the main injector pump.. Don't drive around like this though. If you see loads of air then that'll be the problem. Also while your there make sure that the new lift pump is pumping correctly when using the little handle on the back as copy versions of this pump tend to be . It could be that the diaphram has gone in the new pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted December 19, 2009 Author Share Posted December 19, 2009 Hmm, ok, I will have another go at bleeding the system, the power did noticably drop when I installed the pump. Whats the best way to bleed the injection pump and injection lines? Now with regard to the lift pump. The one that was on didnt have a spacer at all... I thought this odd as I hadn't seen an engine without a spacer fitted. anyway, the replacment pump was identical in dimentions, i.e. the length of the pump cam arm etc was all identical i was sure to check this as i was suprised not to find a spacer. Also pretty confidant the new pump is functioning properly. With regard to the turbo, is there any way I can test to see if its functioning properly while running? Mav Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiWhite Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 My thoughts were either air being pulled into the fuel system or the lift pump. I think it is possible to fit a lift pump with the arm under the camshaft - crack the fuel line after the lift pump off and spin the engine with the starter to see if you are producing pressure. The engine should self bleed air from the fuel system - cracking off each injector in turn will remove all air. I think it is unlikely to be a turbo issue as you'd have the power of a NA diesel. Check the turbine spins as has been suggested. Air getting into the fuel system can be hard to diagnose - check all fuel connections and use the see through pipe trick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD5 power Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 hi id not heard of incorrectly fitting lift pump previously if siwhite'stest above gets diesel out of the loose union then we can rule out thelift pump fitting. Bleeding procedure firstly loosen the union on the outlet of the fuelfilter and operate lift pump until you get air free diesel, if the liftpump doesn't appear to be doing anything quickly flick the starter toturn the cam shaft slightly. Next loosen the union on the input to the injector pump operate lift pump till you get clear diesel again. The correct procedure would be to then slacken the unions at the pump end of the injector lines however they are a pain to get to and you can usually get away without. Now you will need to crack off the unions on the injectors and crankthe engine till you get diesel then tighten up the injector unions asyou get diesel, once two or three are tight the engine will probablyfire up and you can tighten the final ones with the engine running The best way to check the turbo operation is to fit a boost gauge in the small line going to the wastegate on the turbo then you really need to load the engine ie going up a hill with full throttle you should be getting just under 1 bar boost pressure. The reason i went for the turbo was the blue smoke however re reading your original post i was probably being a bit hasty and getting the fuel system sorted should be the first priority. Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted December 19, 2009 Author Share Posted December 19, 2009 hi id not heard of incorrectly fitting lift pump previously if siwhite'stest above gets diesel out of the loose union then we can rule out thelift pump fitting. Bleeding procedure firstly loosen the union on the outlet of the fuelfilter and operate lift pump until you get air free diesel, if the liftpump doesn't appear to be doing anything quickly flick the starter toturn the cam shaft slightly. Next loosen the union on the input to the injector pump operate lift pump till you get clear diesel again. The correct procedure would be to then slacken the unions at the pump end of the injector lines however they are a pain to get to and you can usually get away without. Now you will need to crack off the unions on the injectors and crankthe engine till you get diesel then tighten up the injector unions asyou get diesel, once two or three are tight the engine will probablyfire up and you can tighten the final ones with the engine running The best way to check the turbo operation is to fit a boost gauge in the small line going to the wastegate on the turbo then you really need to load the engine ie going up a hill with full throttle you should be getting just under 1 bar boost pressure. The reason i went for the turbo was the blue smoke however re reading your original post i was probably being a bit hasty and getting the fuel system sorted should be the first priority. Matt Hey Matt, appreciate the assistance, keep the idea's comeing. Ok, went out just now and did some bleeding... I started her up and cracked open the fuel filter bleed - bit of air, then cracked the fuel return on the injection pump, (as per haynes manual advice) - did it before reading your post, will go crack the feed line too later. Then did all 4 injector unions too. I did this while the engine was running, now I can't see a reason why this is a problem rather then just turning the engine over? am I wrong? this is due to not getting it to just turn over as it wants to start pretty much straight away, do you mean remvoing the glow plugs? Could a nackered fuel filter be a problem...? ok, thinking out loud: Just thinking of what parts are pressureised and what is suction, tank to lift pump is suction so in theory air can be drawn in there, from lift pump to filter is pressurised, then filter to injection pump is pressurised,, due to the hight differnce between the lift pump filter and injection pump you might get some head loss causing a slight vacum at the filter, but thats pretty unlikely, anyone know the lift pump supply pressure by any chance? I'm guessing the lift pump supplies an excess of fuel to the injection pump due to the injection pump having an excess fuel return line... so possibly the injector pump could be drawing in air as that will be taking suction from the supply lift pump - i presume there is a resovoir type affair in the injection pump. So any lines going away from the injection pump in theory dont have to be so tight as you'll just get fuel leaking out the system - less fuel to the combustion chamber. Perhaps i'm looking at the wrong end, an observation i made the other day it lookes like the fuel tank may have be replaced recently too.. could my tank suction line be drawing in air somwhere... cheers mav Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD5 power Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 hi yep changing the filter is the next step make sure you get out the old o rings from the filter head, as when i first got my truck home the previous owners "mechanic" had managed to install two sets of o rings which didn't help sealing. If the problem persists i would get a can of diesel on the wing and run a pipe from the can to the lift pump input bleed it as above, if it runs fine then you got a hole in the line from the tank to the lift pump. It has been known for the metal pipe on the tank to rust through, on your age of truck the suction pipe may be integrated with the sender(PRC4262) or if its the later type on its own plate(NTC2159). HTH matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted December 19, 2009 Share Posted December 19, 2009 Now with regard to the lift pump.The one that was on didnt have a spacer at all... I thought this odd as I hadn't seen an engine without a spacer fitted. anyway, the replacment pump was identical in dimentions, i.e. the length of the pump cam arm etc was all identical i was sure to check this as i was suprised not to find a spacer. Also pretty confidant the new pump is functioning properly. the spacer needs to be reused from the old pump, these spacer/gasket blocks are not supplied as a seperate part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted December 21, 2009 Author Share Posted December 21, 2009 the spacer needs to be reused from the old pump, these spacer/gasket blocks are not supplied as a seperate part. sorry maybe I was unclear. there was no spacer on the pump I took off the engine. I found this a bit odd, but replaced like for like. Not able to work on it for a week or two so further exploration will have to wait now. Is it worth geting a Mobile Diesel specialist to come look see and see if he can diagnose it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 Explore everything you can first, otherwise you will only paying someone to crawl around under your truck for an hour or so... Once you've exhausted your options, then is the time to call in the cavalry. It is possible (having had a new tank fitted) that the feed pipe isn't continually submerged... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted December 23, 2009 Author Share Posted December 23, 2009 Explore everything you can first, otherwise you will only paying someone to crawl around under your truck for an hour or so... Once you've exhausted your options, then is the time to call in the cavalry. It is possible (having had a new tank fitted) that the feed pipe isn't continually submerged... Yeah, If it is just air being drawn into the system then somewhere aft of the lift pump I think will provide the solution. Next job is to have a look at the feed pipe back from the lift pump and into the tank. I'll heed your advice about the cavalry, still got a few avenues to explore Mav Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 More likely to be before the lift pump in my opinion, otherwise it'll be squirting diesel all over the engine bay. I've seen the smallest of pin pricks in the fuel feed pipe cause this on a Discovery before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobyone Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 when you changed the lift pump, did you re use or replace the olives on the unions? i would say that this is your air in suction side of lift pump. of course it could be further back towards the sedimenter or even further back to the tank, but i would start sensibly and go back a bit at a time. also, if the diaphragm is shot in the lift pump, will it not draw engine oil in to the fuel? just read all the posts, and this is what i reckon. richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted December 23, 2009 Author Share Posted December 23, 2009 More likely to be before the lift pump in my opinion, otherwise it'll be squirting diesel all over the engine bay. I've seen the smallest of pin pricks in the fuel feed pipe cause this on a Discovery before. Yeah when I say aft of the lift pump I mean geographicaly as it where on the vehicle. Also a good point about the olive, i did re-fit the old one back on, it looked serviceable - but it had the problem before I fitted the new pump. Will drain the tank too for good measure to see if there's any water in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrHT Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Please tell me you actually changed the fuel filter? If you had water in there change it. I've never had to bleed air out of a 200 system before even when changing filters. Had similar problem just after fitting new disco engine changed fuel filter all was fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD5 power Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 hi although the lift pump didn't have the spacer block it is possible a previous owner changed the lift pump and didn't re use the spacer block i haven't seen an engine without this block and all land rover literature shows one fitted. If missing this would reduce the operational cycle of the pump because of the shape of the arm and possibly damage a new pump after only a few revolutions so it delivers less fuel. matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poohbear Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Just a thought - is the new lift pump knackered? I found that a replacement unit (new but not genuine - can't remember the exact brand)didn't work out of the box. Although I did run the truck without any lift pump for a short while with no noticeable problems, even at motorway speeds, so the injection pump must have a fair amount of suction on it! Have to say my guess would be lift pump itself or somewhere between tank and pump, as previously mentioned the lift pump should give a nice squirt of fuel when the engine is running. HTH Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted January 4, 2010 Author Share Posted January 4, 2010 Problem is sorted, changed out the fuel filter and the lift pump, bled the air out and its back to normal. Thanks for all the advice chaps happy bunny once again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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