GCL Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 It has bean brought to our attention that ALL challenge competitors (Drivers) in the UK now need an MSA Competition Licence for the 2010 Season. We have checked this with the MSA & it is their F**K up :angry: as it was omitted from the blue book. All licence numbers need to be added to the MSA return after each event. The cost is £23 for the year. Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Off Road Toad Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 Surely this is only for msa backed events? Thats a bit big brother if ALL challenge competitors need a licence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GCL Posted January 30, 2010 Author Share Posted January 30, 2010 Yes steve that is all events covered by MSA regs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 I thought this was only for the speed events? Like the XTC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GCL Posted January 30, 2010 Author Share Posted January 30, 2010 I thought this was only for the speed events? Like the XTC. Now for challenge as well they just forgot to tell any one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 I'm shocked that they didn't need license anyway. i Thought that was the hold Idea of the MSA coming into the sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrodant Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 I'm shocked that they didn't need license anyway. i Thought that was the hold Idea of the MSA coming into the sport. As from 1st Jan 2010 the MSA have recognised challenge events, i wonder what the MSA will impose next, msa scrutaneer's???, blue book speck rollcages,helmets ect??????? time will tell! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 It depends on the level of event, the license you need has to match or exceed the status/level of the event. All competitors need a suitable license so in a challenge event the navigator (as a competitor) will also need a license (although this may be a club card). The most basic competition license is an MSA club membership card and is valid for "Clubsport" and "Clubman" level events. For National B and above events you need an upgraded license that you buy from the MSA. Some event types can only be run at National B or above so require a license. This is the case for point to point (XTC), comp. safari etc... Challenge events can be run at Clubman or National B level, primarily/normally determined by the number of invited clubs taking part. If you choose "Challenge Event - National B" instead of "Challenge Event - Clubmans" when applying for the permit then you will require a National B status license for both driver and navigator. I have seen nothing in the 2010 Blue Book that would require any competition license with a higher status than a Club Membership Card. There is an "oversight" that would suggest you don't even need a membership card but that's covered elsewhere in the competitors regs. Perhaps you could be more specific in the reasons you think competitors need a National B competition license ? The only thing I can find is (P)24.2 but that doesn't require a National B license it simply doesn't require you to produce a club card and then 24.2.1 further clarifies that for National B and events not including challenges you need a National B license. It may be that there's another reg that I've missed ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GCL Posted January 30, 2010 Author Share Posted January 30, 2010 It depends on the level of event, the license you need has to match or exceed the status/level of the event. All competitors need a suitable license so in a challenge event the navigator (as a competitor) will also need a license (although this may be a club card). The most basic competition license is an MSA club membership card and is valid for "Clubsport" and "Clubman" level events. For National B and above events you need an upgraded license that you buy from the MSA. Some event types can only be run at National B or above so require a license. This is the case for point to point (XTC), comp. safari etc... Challenge events can be run at Clubman or National B level, primarily/normally determined by the number of invited clubs taking part. If you choose "Challenge Event - National B" instead of "Challenge Event - Clubmans" when applying for the permit then you will require a National B status license for both driver and navigator. I have seen nothing in the 2010 Blue Book that would require any competition license with a higher status than a Club Membership Card. There is an "oversight" that would suggest you don't even need a membership card but that's covered elsewhere in the competitors regs. Perhaps you could be more specific in the reasons you think competitors need a National B competition license ? The only thing I can find is (P)24.2 but that doesn't require a National B license it simply doesn't require you to produce a club card and then 24.2.1 further clarifies that for National B and events not including challenges you need a National B license. It may be that there's another reg that I've missed ? This is the man that says so Mr Ian Davis of the MSA Cross Country Executive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrodant Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 It depends on the level of event, the license you need has to match or exceed the status/level of the event. All competitors need a suitable license so in a challenge event the navigator (as a competitor) will also need a license (although this may be a club card). The most basic competition license is an MSA club membership card and is valid for "Clubsport" and "Clubman" level events. For National B and above events you need an upgraded license that you buy from the MSA. Some event types can only be run at National B or above so require a license. This is the case for point to point (XTC), comp. safari etc... Challenge events can be run at Clubman or National B level, primarily/normally determined by the number of invited clubs taking part. If you choose "Challenge Event - National B" instead of "Challenge Event - Clubmans" when applying for the permit then you will require a National B status license for both driver and navigator. I have seen nothing in the 2010 Blue Book that would require any competition license with a higher status than a Club Membership Card. There is an "oversight" that would suggest you don't even need a membership card but that's covered elsewhere in the competitors regs. Perhaps you could be more specific in the reasons you think competitors need a National B competition license ? The only thing I can find is (P)24.2 but that doesn't require a National B license it simply doesn't require you to produce a club card and then 24.2.1 further clarifies that for National B and events not including challenges you need a National B license. It may be that there's another reg that I've missed ? Championship Contenders are aware of the rule change and its implications to competitors. MSA Rule N.24.2. Drivers at events other than Competitive Safaris, Timed Trials, Team Recovery, Point to Point, Challenge Events and Hill Rallies up to and including Clubmen Status, must produce a valid Club Membership Card. MSA Rule N.24.2.1. At events of National B status and above and all Competitive Safaris, Timed Trials, Team Recovery, Point to Point, (Challenge Events) and Junior Trials, drivers must produce a Competition Licence [as detailed in Section H], and Passengers must produce a valid club membership card. Mr Ian Davis stated that the words ‘Challenge Events’, shown in brackets above, had been omitted in the original ruling but will be corrected and be adhered to from the 1st of January 2010. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrfarmer Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 It has bean brought to our attention that ALL challenge competitors (Drivers) in the UK now need an MSA Competition Licence for the 2010 Season. We have checked this with the MSA & it is their F**K up :angry: as it was omitted from the blue book. All licence numbers need to be added to the MSA return after each event. The cost is £23 for the year. Simon i have to get licences for my sons to drive a lawn mower thro canes, and thay only do 4 trials a year. so i gess to have one to drive a truck up a shear quarry face isn't that bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrodant Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 i have to get licences for my sons to drive a lawn mower thro canes, and thay only do 4 trials a year. so i gess to have one to drive a truck up a shear quarry face isn't that bad. I don't think it's the £23 licence that is getting people upset, its the fact that its been inforce for a month and no one knew about it, untill somebody (in the msa)finally noticed that it was missing from a resubmitted SR's application late in the week just gone.. God nows how many applications went through there hands before they moticed. The LRS challenge even asked the MSA to check there SR's for 2010 to make sure that the changes that were being preposed were ok..No mention of this "small" change!!!! And no mention of it in any of there official 1/4 ly literature eather, only a quickly withdrawn statemant saying that MSA scrutaneers would be requred from 1st jan 2010.... I think that comfidance/ credability is being questioned by the driving comunity. Arse/Elbo ect! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 Championship Contenders are aware of the rule change and its implications to competitors. MSA Rule N.24.2. Drivers at events other than Competitive Safaris, Timed Trials, Team Recovery, Point to Point, Challenge Events and Hill Rallies up to and including Clubmen Status, must produce a valid Club Membership Card. MSA Rule N.24.2.1. At events of National B status and above and all Competitive Safaris, Timed Trials, Team Recovery, Point to Point, (Challenge Events) and Junior Trials, drivers must produce a Competition Licence [as detailed in Section H], and Passengers must produce a valid club membership card. Mr Ian Davis stated that the words ‘Challenge Events’, shown in brackets above, had been omitted in the original ruling but will be corrected and be adhered to from the 1st of January 2010. I'm surprised they agreed to that given that they had to drop the scrutineering requirement. I'd assumed that 24.2 was yet another misprint, not 24.2.1. Thanks for the info, I'll chase it up on Monday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 only a quickly withdrawn statemant saying that MSA scrutaneers would be requred from 1st jan 2010.... That was never supposed to appear, it was abandoned a few months ago. I'd like to think it was because I pointed out that for smaller club events this would put the cost up too much as clubs that don't have registered scrutineers will need to pay for one. In reality the bigger clubs, who do have their own scrutineers, argued for it but it was dropped when they realised there weren't enough scrutineers to cover all the events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrodant Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 That was never supposed to appear, it was abandoned a few months ago. I'd like to think it was because I pointed out that for smaller club events this would put the cost up too much as clubs that don't have registered scrutineers will need to pay for one. In reality the bigger clubs, who do have their own scrutineers, argued for it but it was dropped when they realised there weren't enough scrutineers to cover all the events. This is the reason i didnt go into Polatics.....I like to know what is happening and have a straight clear answer, eg is it raining (yes or no)(do i need a coat). Ask the MSA and get drizzel, light rain, showers due, damp fog, heavy mist, ect ect ect! I just want to go and get my 4x4 stuck and then recover it, and then get stuck again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 i wonder what the MSA will impose next, msa scrutaneer's???, blue book speck rollcages,helmets ect??????? time will tell! i think all that is inevitable with time This theme is followed on D4x4 site too with a different answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJ101 Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Don't like to say,, "I told you so" But !! Have been flamed, going back years on this subject,, But as soon as the MSA get involved,, get ready to see costs rise,, both vehicle prep, and event entry fees Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 As from 1st Jan 2010 the MSA have recognised challenge events, i wonder what the MSA will impose next, msa scrutaneer's???, blue book speck rollcages,helmets ect??????? time will tell! I'm a National A licence holder. I have had some massive crashes off road admittedly at 60+mph and involved the landrover being completely totaled and if i was not for the car being built to MSA regs I would not be alive today and my challenge truck cage was built to MSA spec and most people have see how little damage was done to it's cage after I dropped it 20ft onto its roof so I don't see the problems with safety kit being regulated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 With the licenses, Is it just a question of buying it? or testing? or experience in the lower categories? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrodant Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 With the licenses, Is it just a question of buying it? or testing? or experience in the lower categories? Just £23 and the lowest one is urs,same for a comp licence i think but more money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt BADLRC Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Just £23 and the lowest one is urs,same for a comp licence i think but more money Yes its that easy as long as you haven't ever been refused one or had one taken off you for being naughty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJ101 Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Unless they treat it as a race or rally licence,, then new applicants will have to take a one day BARS course at a school !!! aprox £200 just for the test !! Would guess until a MSA licence is required, a club membership card will suffice Have no problem with full MSA spec vehicles,, Just enjoy the sport, where vehicles are fairly free to do with what you like,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boothy Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 I've read it somewhere it's only for MSA run events and therefore events being run under MSA rules are a different ball game i.e not run MSA officials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrodant Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 Taken from devon 4x4 forum......... have contacted Ian Davis at the MSA today and can confirm that the MSA intend to push the requirement for competition licences foreward. Although not happy with the outcome we are happy to stand corrected The MSA has drafted a Press Release clarifying the requirement for release tomorrow. That will go to all registered clubs and will be on the News section of the MSA website. I have to say i am a little shocked at this determination to press foreward with this even after the horse has clearly bolted and I am also concerned over how this will potentially affect the new relationship between our sport and the MSA. I am currently awaiting a responce from our comittee and feel it highly likely we will be making an official complaint about the way this has been both handled and pushed foreward at a time when we should be building bridges and working together not driving wedges between us all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TJ101 Posted February 1, 2010 Share Posted February 1, 2010 I have to say i am a little shocked at this determination to press foreward with this even after the horse has clearly bolted and I am also concerned over how this will potentially affect the new relationship between our sport and the MSA. Welcome to the workings of the MSA A International Licence holder for over 20 years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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