FridgeFreezer Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 Sorry, mild hijack: What would the difference in average MPG be between a 3.5l V8 and the 2 1/4 petrol say both standard, running carbs and dizzy? Not much difference TBH, but the V8 will be getting you there faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRecklessEngineer Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 but the V8 will be getting you there faster. And with a very big grin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allinger Posted February 22, 2010 Author Share Posted February 22, 2010 It's one use for an old carburettor - gut it and use it as the throttle, a lot of the MS crowd do that when converting. Incidentally, the MS forums have a whole section on mounting injectors etc., you can buy drill bits which drill a perfect stepped hole for an injector, extruded aluminium fuel rail by the metre, all sorts. More on this Mr FF, if you please. I've been looking through scrappers for a bit and the idea of confabulating up a fuel rail and injectors seems a bit - flammable... Do correct if wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 Allinger - As I said, loads of stuff on the MS forums what with people megasquirting all sorts of stuff from chainsaws to merlins. It's quite common to use the remains of the carb as a throttle plate and drill the inlet manifold for injectors. It's not as fine a science as you might expect, it's entirely done to drill holes in the inlet manifold & araldite injector bungs in. As with all of this, there are so many ways to skin a cat that there's little point going into massive detail until you pick one. Best bet is to take a measurement of your inlet manifold (or buy the gaskets for a few quid and take to the scrapyard in your pocket) and hunt down either an EFI inlet manifold, TBI setup, or set of throttle bodies (EG 4-pot motorbike) that looks like it may fit or adapt easily. PWM stands for Pulse Width Modulation, it's just a way of generating a variable voltage from a digital circuit (much like a dimmer switch) by turning it on & off very quickly. PWM idle valves are just one way of acheiving idle control using a single wire - more volts equals more air. The common alternative being a stepper motor idle valve. These require 4 wires to control and a bit more programming & hardware in the ECU, hence with the standard MS code there wasn't enough room to include this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrycrabbe Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 Just an idea, but didn't some series diesels have a butterfly valve in the inlet to create a vacuum for a brake servo? Could you use one for a throttle along with the diesel manifold drilled for 4 injectors? Steve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 Just an idea, but didn't some series diesels have a butterfly valve in the inlet to create a vacuum for a brake servo? Could you use one for a throttle along with the diesel manifold drilled for 4 injectors? I don't think the butterfly in those would seal anywhere near well enough to act as a useful throttle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allinger Posted February 24, 2010 Author Share Posted February 24, 2010 A first baby step on the way to an EFId two-and-a-quarter has been taken - an inlet manifold has been sourced. Cheap as chips. With shiping that came to 2.5 times the cost of the manifold. And a source for nylon/delrin has been found, as plastic chopping boards was found wanting. Seems the Swedish industrial standard for plastic chopping boards states "under no circumstances thicker than 10mm"... Hey ho - let's go! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted February 24, 2010 Share Posted February 24, 2010 The TSD chopping board TBI adapter was to cut/drill/dremel one bit of board to bolt to the TBI, and a second to fit to the inlet manifold, and then bolt the two halves together. There's a small picture of it here: (http://www.ep90.com/index.php?id=36) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allinger Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 The TSD chopping board TBI adapter was to cut/drill/dremel one bit of board to bolt to the TBI, and a second to fit to the inlet manifold, and then bolt the two halves together. There's a small picture of it here: (http://www.ep90.com/index.php?id=36) Of course! No problems with the material in the cutting boards themselves? When trying to source boards, I came to the conclusion that the material used has very agressive non-stick properties. Then again, when bolting the two halves together, I assume that some kind of gasket (Loctite or similar) is to be used, right? Anyways - thanks for pointing me towards the MS forums. I finally had a chance at having a good look at all the stuff that goes on - and some of it is truly marvelous! Unfortunately most of the fabbing involves equipment, skill and time. Or a good dose of money. And as I have little of either, I'll stick with my original plan for now. If all goes to plan I'll pick up a Golf 1.8i TBI along with a coil pack and sensor out of a couple of Fords during the w/e. Now, the coil pack is from (if I recall correctly) a 2004 Mondeo and unlike the older, say mid-nineties, coil packs, this seems to have spark wire connectors that look like the ones on my dizzy cap. Would this mean that regular spark wires can be used? When looking at the breaker's websites, it seems like the older coil packs have snap connectors and a shorter "towers" on the coil pack. And finally I've also managed to source a wideband lambda probe out of a Volvo (of which there are a few around these parts, for some reason...), to be picked up later next week. At least the sourcing bit is moving along nicely - next up is assembly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Yes, the older coil packs have much better snap-on terminals, these even have an o-ring in them which is what helps a LOT to make it water proof, if you aren't too fussed by the waterproofness then the 'gen 2' packs can be used as well, a mate runs one in his MJ installation and has never had a problem, and yes he is using the standard leads from his Mazda engine on it, they clipped in nicely Why a wideband sensor? You only really need a narrowband, wide are more fragile and MS tuning has been proved to be pretty spot-on with a narrowband one, and they cost a helluva lot less! Some sort of gasket compound would be fine between the two halves of a chopping board, I am sure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allinger Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 Thanks for the coil pack info! I guess I'm really not _that_ concerned about absolute waterproofing, so a "new" coil pack it'll be. And should waterproofing be the flavour of the day, then I'll always have the "latex-gloves-and-zipties" solution in the car As for wideband - that was what I thought all cool kids where using now... Seriously though - I found out that reasonably late model Audis and Volvos have these mounted and that the breakers have them en masse. And don't charge more than pocket change for them. Oh, and a curious thing that I've found out. It seems we're running out of mid-nineties Fords. Sensors, coil packs and other assorted bits and pieces are well more expensive if taken from a -95 Escort than from a -04 Mondeo. If you can find them even ... Law of supply and demand in effect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Gen 1 coil packs are preferable, but any old tat will do to get you running and frankly any of them will be better than a dizzy. As said in Nige's thread, you can dismantle Ford leads and crimp the ends onto a set of LR leads to give a very workable setup (I ran like this for ages) or you can get a swanky bespoke set made up. You don't want a wideband Lambda sensor, and if you really have got one (5 or more wires) you won't be able to use it without a controller such as the TechEdge or Innovate, which cost around £100. In short, you want a 1,3, or 4-wire narrowband O2 sensor which can be found on just about everything, or for around £25 from the motor factors as universal fit items. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSD Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Of course! No problems with the material in the cutting boards themselves? When trying to source boards, I came to the conclusion that the material used has very agressive non-stick properties. Then again, when bolting the two halves together, I assume that some kind of gasket (Loctite or similar) is to be used, right? At the risk of owning up to my 'kitchenware into land rover' experiments... You are dead right about the nonstick properties. I stuck the originals together with blue hylomar, but there was evidence of the sealant moving inwards under vacuum and vibration. A thick piece of gasket paper with sealant added might work better. Oh, and mine was only ever a temporary experiment, replaced by two thick pieces of ali. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allinger Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 A narrowband sensor it is then! I'm getting right clever with the breaker's database by now, so I'll have one at hand in a jiffy... And thanks for confirming my cutting-board theory. I might just use a board for doing a mockup or two, given that IKEA has them on sale. As always... Was there a particular reason for using two parts - other than to achieve heigth/clearance or suchlike? I've managed to find a supplier of industrial plastic, that I hope will be able to provide me with a reasonably large offcut, that I can mate upp to the inlet on the one side and to the TBI on the other. Obviously, since I have neither inlet nor TBI at the moment, the subject is sort of academic at the moment... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSD Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 And thanks for confirming my cutting-board theory. I might just use a board for doing a mockup or two, given that IKEA has them on sale. As always... Was there a particular reason for using two parts - other than to achieve heigth/clearance or suchlike? I've managed to find a supplier of industrial plastic, that I hope will be able to provide me with a reasonably large offcut, that I can mate upp to the inlet on the one side and to the TBI on the other. I was fitting a chevy TBI onto a Weber 38DGAS manifold, and as I recall there was interference between studs going into the manifold and studs up to the TBI unit. Plus it made the initial manufacture very quick and easy - I cut one with TBI footprint and one with Weber, then bolted them together and blended the join with a Dremel. Mine was one of the first vehicles running MS in the UK. It was a fair time in the planning, then the inital install was done over a couple of weekends as a proof of concept. Once that was done, the install was upgraded one piece at a time with 'proper' parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allinger Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 I'm humble in the presence of giants... Putting one's wheels up (along with some cash ) as PoC is impressive. Going back to the TBI foot question - are there any considerations that should be taken into account with regards to industrial plastic and petrol? It'd be pure buggery to have a throttle adaptor do a icecream-lookalike across the manifold... Aaaand another question - fuel return? To the best of my knowledge (and that is an acronym for dodgy online SIII repair manuals) there never was a return line on 88" petrol LRs. And as I wouldn't want Greenpeace parked up my backside by dumping excess petrol by the wayside, what would be the niftiest way of achieving a return line? All rubber? Tap-and-thread stainless? Go-faster aluminum? Cheap-n-easy-but-could-blow-in-you-face-copper? This is all getting so involved. I was really hoping for a slappy-happy system... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Acetal (Delrin) is petrol resistant I think. These chaps are good for bits of plastic etc: http://www.davis-plastics.co.uk/ I've used them a lot in the past for pipework and stuff, and they always have chunks of various plastics lying around Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 I have some plate ali kicking about what size / thickness are you after Making something and taking time coverting a chopping board seems a waste when you then have to remake ? Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoltan Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Cheap-n-easy-but-could-blow-in-you-face-copper works well usually if you flare the ends. It isn't under any pressure on the return Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allinger Posted February 25, 2010 Author Share Posted February 25, 2010 Oh well, I've found a source of stainless. Could do with a decent bender anyhow... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSD Posted February 25, 2010 Share Posted February 25, 2010 Not sure if you've noted this already, but I think the Bosch SPI systems (like the GM ones) run at about 15psi, not 50psi+ like the more common MPI systems. That means different using fuel pumps etc., but also it means that fuel pipework is a bit less demanding (and/or worrying ). Fuel supply and return can just be normal fuel hose throughout, with a restriction in the return line. I have seen the restriction be just a cut down BIC biro top rammed down the pipe - ghastly but works as well as anything. It's only there to give the HP pump something to work against and stop it running flat out trying to fill the tank with fuel - from the tank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allinger Posted March 3, 2010 Author Share Posted March 3, 2010 Guess I could make do with something simpler than stainless then... And by tomorrow I'll be officially ready to start trying stuff out, as the mainfold is to be delivered to my door. Which leads me to backtrack a bit - lambda sensor and it's placement. From what I can gather, the sensor is to be placed below the exhaust manifold, on the first down section. Is this essential, or would it work to have it placed a bit higher up, i.e. on the lowest part of the exhaust manifold itself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 I just buy rubber fuel hose by the metre from the nearest hydraulics shop. Just make sure the stuff on the pressure side is suitable for ~50psi+ Lambda sensor placement is not very critical, they can be anywhere in the first 50% of the system judging by what manufacturers do, generally near the engine is preferable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 From what I've seen it's a good idea to have it positioned in order that it gets a bit of exhaust from each cylinder? So somewhere after the join I guess? Watching this thread with interest, want to MS my 2.25 after I've got it all running. MPI though, rather than TBI, as I fancy a challenge. Not seen a MPI setup done on one before Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoltan Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 Fuel supply and return can just be normal fuel hose throughout, with a restriction in the return line. I have seen the restriction be just a cut down BIC biro top rammed down the pipe - ghastly but works as well as anything. It's only there to give the HP pump something to work against and stop it running flat out trying to fill the tank with fuel - from the tank The HP pump is working against the pressure regulator, it shouldn't need any restrictor in the return line. True, with a swirl pot the LP lift pump must have a restrictor but the HP circuit has one in the form of the pressure regulator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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