cypermethrin Posted November 28, 2010 Share Posted November 28, 2010 I have read lots of threads that say you should not apply the throttle until the engine fires as this would affect the engines cold start. It was -3 C this morning when I tried to start the 300 tdi - the engine turns over fine with the starter but without any throttle is very reluctant to fire. Has new battery, new starter, new earths to chassis, bellhousing, starter and block.... Would be very grateful for some counsel.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K88 MUD Posted November 28, 2010 Share Posted November 28, 2010 Check or replace the glow plugs....very common for them to need changing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypermethrin Posted November 28, 2010 Author Share Posted November 28, 2010 Thanks K88 MUD that's what I was thinking - there are some a set of 4x NGKY-729U glow plugs for a reasonable £32.78 on Fleabay here if anyone else is having the some problem with their 300 TDi http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NGK-GLOW-PLUGS-Y-729U-Y729U-STOCK-CODE-2203-/310268183493?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item483d6cc3c5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K88 MUD Posted November 28, 2010 Share Posted November 28, 2010 Have a look here........ PADDOCKS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berti1554 Posted November 28, 2010 Share Posted November 28, 2010 A 300tdi should fire up at -3C w/o pre-glowing at all. It only has a little rougher idle for the first few seconds (at least mine one has). How many miles do you have on the injectors? Robert PS: Check the glow plugs before you replace them (disconnect them and check on continuity to ground). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypermethrin Posted November 28, 2010 Author Share Posted November 28, 2010 Wow these are alot cheaper ! Had heard that its best to get a known makes (Bosch/NGK) for glow plugs..... are the ones Paddocks sells a quality piece of kit or like the cheap ones on Ebay ? Have a look here........ PADDOCKS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sparkes Posted November 28, 2010 Share Posted November 28, 2010 ... It was -3 C this morning when I tried to start the 300 tdi - the engine turns over fine with the starter but without any throttle is very reluctant to fire. You are implying that it fires with markedly less reluctance if you give it a bit of throttle, did you mean to imply that? Or were you just wondering whether to try a bit of throttle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypermethrin Posted November 28, 2010 Author Share Posted November 28, 2010 Hi David -thanks for your help and post Sequence was as follows 1) turn ign to Pos II and wait for glow plugs light to go out 2) turn from ign Pos II to III the starter motor engages and cranks the engine - this goes on for about 5 seconds - then I reset 3) repeated 1 and 2 and got the same 4) repeated 1 and 2 and lightly feathered throttle this time - engine fires roughly and then after about 5 seconds is OK Once started like this first thing in the day - its starts on the turn at all other times I gather that it should be possible to get a 300 tdi to fire without the use of glow plugs in theory - but cant reconcile why they are fitted if this is true. Also wrt the injectors - truck has only been ours for 4 months - but has been well serviced and maintained - done 90k. You are implying that it fires with markedly less reluctance if you give it a bit of throttle, did you mean to imply that? Or were you just wondering whether to try a bit of throttle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sparkes Posted November 28, 2010 Share Posted November 28, 2010 Ok. In the light of that I'd just go with starting with a touch of throttle in cold conditions. I suggest the initial running rough is either a lazy glow plug, or a badly spraying injector. Once the combustion chamber has warmed up a tad the sprayed fuel is burning OK, and it sounds as though the engine is retaining enough heat while standing during the day to give better initial firing conditions, thus the defect isn't noticable. Removing, testing, and changing whichever glow plug is found faulty is probably the cheapest way forward, but it might be worthwhile looking out for somewhere that will test the injectors. Best if you can take them out and arrive with them in your hand, but that does depend on you having other transport available, and the workshop ability + kit to remove and injectors. Don't forget any fire washers that might need extracting separately. If you believe the 'should fire without glow plugs' story, then that makes the fault either poor spray pattern due to faulty injectors or low pressure from the fuel pump, or the battery and starter circuit isn't good enough, causing the starter to not spin the engine fast enough to generate the heat due to compression that the fuel needs in order to burn. Worn bores and rings could also be a cause of poor compression when cold. Personally I'd say 'some do, some don't' when it comes to starting without glow plugs, so I wouldn't class the need to use glow plugs as a fault. HTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypermethrin Posted November 28, 2010 Author Share Posted November 28, 2010 Thanks David Just braved the -4 C outside currently at 17:30 - to have a closer look. Did the resistance check across them and only showed 16 kohm which I think equates to 0.016 ohm - so something to be concerned about. Whipped a couple of them out - both look thick with oil and on the poor end of the spectrum - Beru components - tried to pass 12v across the top terminal and casing as earth of a spare 12v car battery - dead as a dodo - both of them. Tried this again using the new battery in the truck same result. So no wonder the poor thing is struggling to start with no "help" at all. Guess what I'm buying on the morning ! Thanks again this forum is fantastic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted November 28, 2010 Share Posted November 28, 2010 Just a note, 16KOhm is exactly that, 16,000 Ohm, not, 0.016 Ohm,. which would be written as 16mOhm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypermethrin Posted November 28, 2010 Author Share Posted November 28, 2010 So I definitely should have paid more attention in school !! So if the resistance was indeed 16000 ohm. Instead of the usual 1 ohm --- does this mean that testing the restistance is not the best of of diagnosing the health of a glow plug ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LandyManLuke Posted November 28, 2010 Share Posted November 28, 2010 does this mean that testing the restistance is not the best of of diagnosing the health of a glow plug ?? See This thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulN Posted November 28, 2010 Share Posted November 28, 2010 I remember about a year ago having V.cold day start problemss with my 300 Disco. Tested and found only one of four working! Changing all to new made a massive difference without altering anything else. Still ok today and that's even though I've yet to sort out an overnight fuel or oild seepage - so they're soaked in cr*p as well!! If working they really do glow bright red hot when connected and grounded held with insulated pliers. I had not seen them working in 'real life' before and took advice from this forum and did the job. Thought better of the cheaper 'eblag' ones in favour of Bosch from local factors - never looked back HTH a Little. Paul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco-Ron Posted November 28, 2010 Share Posted November 28, 2010 On the top of the inlet manifold is a sensor, this is as far as i'm aware the cold start sensor.......... which basically richens up the fuelling when stone cold..... maybe that needs changing..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypermethrin Posted November 30, 2010 Author Share Posted November 30, 2010 Now that's a good thought - can anyone advise me on where I can find the sensor - had a look on RAVE but did not find it... thanks On the top of the inlet manifold is a sensor, this is as far as i'm aware the cold start sensor.......... which basically richens up the fuelling when stone cold..... maybe that needs changing..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulN Posted November 30, 2010 Share Posted November 30, 2010 On the top of the inlet manifold is a sensor I've just taken my inlet manifold off and can't find one on mine! (Disco 300) Where's it lurking then - Defender feature? photo-pretty please Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted November 30, 2010 Share Posted November 30, 2010 no semsors on a Defender 300tdi mainfold as you can see on page 233 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypermethrin Posted November 30, 2010 Author Share Posted November 30, 2010 Well I'm glad I am not going mad!! On othe defender fora there is mention of the cold start advance that is part of the Bosch injector head. Have been trying to find out more .... Can any wise person point me in the right direction please ? Am really quite intrigued as to what it is and how it works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco-Ron Posted November 30, 2010 Share Posted November 30, 2010 no semsors on a Defender 300tdi mainfold as you can see on page 233 My mistake, its in the top of the head! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypermethrin Posted December 1, 2010 Author Share Posted December 1, 2010 Can you point us in the right direction please - on which page is it details on this link http://www.retroanaconda.com/landrover/parts_books/110/3_engine_200TDI_300TDI_V8_p168-299.pdf My mistake, its in the top of the head! scroll to pages 225/226 no listing for a sensor on a Defender 300tdi cylinder head though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco-Ron Posted December 1, 2010 Share Posted December 1, 2010 Very odd, both Disco's that i've had, and now my '96 90 have all had a sensor on top of the head, i thin k it goes where item 29 is on the parts listing..... don;t know why it doesn't show it though...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted December 1, 2010 Share Posted December 1, 2010 it'll be for the EGR system IIRC. Item 31 on the attached microcat parts info page below, also used on Td5 as the cooling system temp sensor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypermethrin Posted December 2, 2010 Author Share Posted December 2, 2010 Thanks Western that's really kind of you. So - does this function only with the EGR - or does it have a function to control the cold start advance facility on the Bosch pump head ? it'll be for the EGR system IIRC. Item 31 on the attached microcat parts info page below, also used on Td5 as the cooling system temp sensor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted December 2, 2010 Share Posted December 2, 2010 Thanks Western that's really kind of you. So - does this function only with the EGR - or does it have a function to control the cold start advance facility on the Bosch pump head ? sorry don't know if it has any affect on other systems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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