RaFfo90 Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 I've done what daveW has done, I used one of those as my isolator before and was fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokey_joe Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 I have run those for the last 2 years with no problem or issues. They isolate the 3 winches when the master switch is turned off and reduce the metreage of heavy cable routed round the truck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 DaveW do you feel that these will offer good reliability after a period of time, especially as they could be working near their capacity for long periods of time, unlike Albrights that relatively speaking only work for short bursts and are not the best bit of kit, but are the the chosen favourite. The solenoids are only powered up when the winch master switch on the dash is switched on, on my motor this has to be done before any winch can be used from either it's external controls or it's dashboard controls. What kills switch contacts is switching large currents but in this case the solenoid will already be closed when the winch solenoid is being activated so it will be taking a lot less pain than the winch solenoid. In terms of reliability I'd expect them to be far more reliable than the winch solenoid. Having it easily accessible in the battery box means that, should a solenoid fail, it can be bypassed very quickly and easily. To reduce the current through each even further and also mitigate some of the voltage drop I might add BUS bars between the solenoids although the downside of that is that I may not notice if one of the solenoids fails so I'm undecided as yet. One advantage of this arrangement is the ease of adding an emergency stop button for each winch which, sited somewhere near the winch could completely kill the power to a winch when hit. Do you think this solution sits within the rules? Yes, I think it does. For years it has been acceptable to use a solenoid control system as a cut off switch in other areas of motor sport and not just cross country. They've even been advertised in the Blue Book in the past. A solenoid is fitted next to the battery and then control switches are mounted around the vehicle that deactivate that solenoid when they are operated, killing the vehicle's electrics. To my mind that establishes a principle that isolating the vehicle electrics "remotely" from a switch is acceptable. Some of them are sold as "fully complies with FIA technical regulations" and they are regularly fitted to Rally cars as a simple way of providing all the required kill switches around the vehicle. If you accept the principle that the switch you operate doesn't have to directly isolate the circuits itself then I can't see any reason at all why we can't use them to isolate winch circuits. A quick Google for "Brise EV200" should show up an example of the devices I'm referring to. They cost £150+ though whereas the Albright one costs £25... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yella 90 Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 This is the method im going to adopt aswel dave as i have both 12 and 24v circuits on my motor 12 v dedicated to the land rover 24v for the winches Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TobyMellin Posted January 22, 2011 Author Share Posted January 22, 2011 Very impressed with all that Dave, look like a much more professional solution to the problem. Am I right in thinking that your using an FIA master switch to kill all electrical circuits, then a separate switch to kill all winch circuits only? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Hiatt Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 As a tip, when you fit your master switch leave your main cables long enough to bypass it by connecting both to the same pole. At least then you have a get you home failsafe for when the switch fails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Am I right in thinking that your using an FIA master switch to kill all electrical circuits, then a separate switch to kill all winch circuits only? Yes. I have a simple low current (carling) winch master switch on the dashboard that is used as a master switch for the winch controls. All the winch control switches around the vehicle are fed from this switch allowing me to disable all the controls when the winches aren't in use. It gets it's feed from the ignition so to operate any of the winches you need the ignition turned on and the switch on the dashboard turned on. I'm using the same circuit to operate the isolator solenoids so they will only be activated when the winch master switch is on. I use an FIA switch to kill the vehicle electrics and, because the winch master switch is fed via the ignition, the FIA switch also removes power from the winch master switch, opening the winch isolator solenoids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TobyMellin Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 Great. I'm thinking along the following set up for mine (I only have a front winch at the moment). FIA master cut off switch mounted on a plate on internal roll hoop cross bars. This would cut all vehicle electrics and operate the albright HD isolator for the winch/2nd battery. I'd also have a pull cord from this switch with the handle mounted on the outside of the car. Durite heavy duty cut off switch mounted next to the FIA master switch. This would isolate the winch/2nd battery only, and would be wired in before the albright HD isolator. Can you see any problems with this set up dave? One plus I can see, is that in the event of the albright isolator failing, I could bypass it and still be able to isolate the winch/2nd battery by the durite switch. Would this be ok with my x-charge set-up? For normal road use, the winch would be isolated by the durite hd switch. thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zardos Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 the problem with only kiling the control cuircuits to your winches is when the solinoids decided to weld them selves in the live position. if this happens and the person pulling the switch is out side your motor will stop and your winch carry on. hence why when you kill the main feed iin my motor it isolates the batteries completly This reason for not using solenoids is rubbish, as mechanical switches can also weld themselves on. So using this reasoning you need two isolators for the FIA cutoff switch in case one fails. (which is actually how most winches are wired up with a mechanical and electrical operated cutoff switches, thus having redundancy) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Hiatt Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Both the FIA electronic isolators have cut the earth rather than the earth. I had an Armtech(useless) and now a Cartec (a little better). Also the kill buttons are permanently live, pressing the button breaks the circuit and trips the isolator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Great. I'm thinking along the following set up for mine (I only have a front winch at the moment). FIA master cut off switch mounted on a plate on internal roll hoop cross bars. This would cut all vehicle electrics and operate the albright HD isolator for the winch/2nd battery. I'd also have a pull cord from this switch with the handle mounted on the outside of the car. Durite heavy duty cut off switch mounted next to the FIA master switch. This would isolate the winch/2nd battery only, and would be wired in before the albright HD isolator. Can you see any problems with this set up dave? One plus I can see, is that in the event of the albright isolator failing, I could bypass it and still be able to isolate the winch/2nd battery by the durite switch. Would this be ok with my x-charge set-up? For normal road use, the winch would be isolated by the durite hd switch. thanks. Sounds OK to me, not sure what effect, if any it would have on an X-charge. One thing to watch out for is the mounting of your FIA switch though - remember it needs to be operable by the driver when strapped in or (if using inertia belts) when your belt has locked and you are hanging upside down. Having the switch mounted behind you centrally may put it out of easy reach. It's easy enough to reach a switch when you are sat in your driveway without a care in the world, when things are going tits up though the switch needs to fall to hand easily. In your mind, put yourself in this situation and ask yourself where your cutoff switch should be located... In my comping days, during my first rollover, the cutoff switch was off and the engine stopped before the roll cage hit the ground for the first time, at the end of the day that's the primary reason it's there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boothy Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Opps Dave, in hindsight would you have hit the brakes again, honest answer please ????? Not as I would have done anything different I might add Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Opps Dave, in hindsight would you have hit the brakes again, honest answer please ????? Not as I would have done anything different I might add Wasn't me driving, I was filming it and trying to get the driver to turn it off before it did any more damage. There's no doubt in my mind that hitting the accelerator instead of the brakes would have saved it but I guess when you start sucking up the seatcover the brakes are a natural instinct. The reason I chose that clip is because the driver had enough problems getting to the ignition switch once his whole world had flipped over. With my organisers hat on I'd also like to point out that the driver was warned that that route had the potential for bad things to happen if you got it wrong and I also pointed out a much safer alternative route. Once it became clear he was going to go via that route regardless "we" decided to get the cameras out just in case... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 On a slightly different note, but still isolator related, I have killed one of these: It has a dodgy contact inside, and wont conduct enough to start the engine. I am pretty sure it is due to mud and sand collecting inside (judging from the grinding noise when I turn it)after being dunced under water several times. So the question is whether each of the options pictured in this thread (thinking of going for the first one pictured)is actually proper waterproof. Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 No, none of those pictured are. The first one (heavy duty Durite) could probably be made more waterproof fairly easily if you took it apart and reassembled with some silicon/gasket goo/vaseline to prevent water getting in. The FIA type (second picture) would be more difficult to waterproof as it's a "sealed" design although they usually last a couple of years or more as long as they're reasonable well sheltered form the worst of the water/mud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete300tdi90 Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Hey, I have done my isolators like so... within reach of driver while wearing a seatbelt and kills winches and engine... Whats this about having them on the outside now...? Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martifers Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Neat install but there are 3 switches there... does one switch isolate everything? As that is what I thought you needed to meet MSA spec. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete300tdi90 Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 yes, but look closely and you will see they are joined together. meaning you turn one, you turn off all 3. clever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yella 90 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Can someone reach it from the outside though and turn them off ? As i believe thats another problem as ive been told by a scruitineer Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete300tdi90 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 yes. if you are 6ft (like Dave is) should be easy. im only little and can just about do it when the door tops are off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martifers Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 yes, but look closely and you will see they are joined together. meaning you turn one, you turn off all 3. clever Wondered what the shiny bling was for lol Didn't notice the bar. Simples! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Can someone reach it from the outside though and turn them off ? As i believe thats another problem as ive been told by a scruitineer Dan There is no requirement for that for Challenge events, the regulations are badly thought out as it is without scrutineers making up their own version as they go along. It is a recommendation that the switch complies with K.8 but not a requirement and K.8 requires much more than just being able to "lean in and turn it off", it requires a switch (or more often a bowden cable) that can be operated on the outside of the vehicle, marked with a blue flash. There are some disciplines where an external method of killing the electrics (K.8) is required, comp safari, point to point and hill rally, for example (P 57.2.1) but that is not a requirement for challenge events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yella 90 Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Thanks for pointing that out dave Appears that some scruits need to go back to school ! Im safe anyhows its slap bang in the middle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrHT Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 think the problem is that they can't interpret what the blue book say's so they just do what they like. It would be nice if you had a blue book for each type of event rather than 1 bloody great big one that you can't see the wood for the tree's in. Or even a glossery wich says for challenge your vehicle must conform to parts k..... and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Another question, slightly related: does anyone ever use a fuse in their electric systems? I know a isolator is meant to do that, but it only works if smoke start appearing from various components, after which you are meant to turn it off, but it could be way to late by then. I can imagine a situation were you are winching uder water, water entering the motor and then shorting the whole system. You wouldnt notice what is going on untill it is too late and your battery is toast also. Just a thought. Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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