Series 3 109 Forward Control Fire Engine

[M&S]

A few more pics.

Had to cut out a bit of steel work to get to the snapped exhaust manifold studs, will weld that back in later (couldn't imagine saying that about my D2 )

The front panel has been removed as it is quite rotton. The extended top was only riveted on. I might get a replacement made in one piece if this isn't repairable. I don't see the point in making two new ones and riveting them back together. I'll also use it as an opportunity to extend the cowling from the grille to the radiator a bit more.

Reckon the wings will be coming off today, that'll give me more than enough access for painting the chassis and bulkhead.

[M&S]

Wings are staying on as they are quite a lump, made of fibre glass, and look like they'll break if I try to move them. They go right back under the doors and with the radiator and servo and heater blower out I don't need anymore access. Looks liek I'd be far better off leaving them where they are!

I think the rear springs are shot as well. Need new bushes all round but the rear is sat well on teh bump stops and does look about 2" lower than the front!

[David Sparkes]

The rear springs do look as though they have blown slightly. You could try stripping them apart and rebuilding them, but it's a lot of work, and you are probably as well off buying some of the decent replacements that (I understand) are now available from Paddocks.

The main reason for posting is to say that you shouldn't be fooled by the bump stops, because they aren't. They are auxiliary springs, offered by the factory for heavily laden vehicles.

They are still available, new, but not from Land Rover, and you don't get the option on stiffness as only the stiffer version S version is now available, so the S is not stated.

They are naturally longer than the standard bumps stops, and will thus always fill, or almost fill, the space between the spring and the chassis.

With these Custom build vehicles I'm never sure whether they were fitted as part of the original build, or whether previous owners fitted them as an alternative to replacing springs, or as an attempt to increase the roll stiffness without making the normal springing rock solid.

I've used them on another car, and been impressed with their progressive nature.

For spring Specifications see http://www.timbren.com/aeon-double-convolution-springs.htm

The A535/65 product is available in the UK.

Contact David McCormick at

Ride Solutions

33 Illingworth Way

Foxton

Cambridge CB2 6RY, U.K.

tel. 00 44 (0) 1223 701012

mob. +44 (0) 7711 272473

http://www.rubbersuspension.com/

[tacr2man]

I take it the water tank is empty ? if so there should be at least 1" + between the Aeon unit and the cup on top of axle . IIRC as I had fitted HD springs and Aeons on a 109 hard top I converted for Overland . They do help with roll stiffness as well as they are a progressive spring . I fitted them on the front as well , they also have the added advantage of preventing springs snapping . I personally tested that theory as well ! inadvertantly . HTSH ps they last for donkeys years as well

[Phil Hancock]

Wings are staying on as they are quite a lump, made of fibre glass, and look like they'll break if I try to move them. They go right back under the doors and with the radiator and servo and heater blower out I don't need anymore access. Looks liek I'd be far better off leaving them where they are!

I think the rear springs are shot as well. Need new bushes all round but the rear is sat well on teh bump stops and does look about 2" lower than the front!

To state the obvious those rear springs are not a std landy spring, there are too many leaves as i counted 11 and the heaviest landy spring was 9 leaf as on the 1 ton model.

[M&S]

Many thanks all, and especially to David for the link!

Phil, yes there are 11 springs.

I need to do some more reading when I get home tonight. Maybe the leaves just need stripping and cleaning and new bushes...although I don't see how that will change the height of the rear enough for it to sit level - and that's with the water tank empty (according to the sight glass and drain valve anyway )? If they are not standard leaf springs I guess I'll still be able to get something locally, at a truck centre perhaps?

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction - as I've said elsewhere, I am learning as I go along with this one (and on this occassion I can't find anything in the parts manual or ROM)

[David Sparkes]

... Maybe the leaves just need stripping and cleaning and new bushes...although I don't see how that will change the height of the rear enough for it to sit level ...

Multi-leaf springs use the friction of the leaves rubbing together to give 'self-damping', as an aside this means the shock absorbers are less stiff than ones used with coil springs.

When the leaves are very rusty, and in this case, the leaves are slightly blown apart with the rust, the friction between the leaves increases. The high friction not only means the complete spring doesn't flex upwards when the axle hits a bump, it also means the spring doesn't flex downwards when the bump is passed.

Opening the spring up, removing the rust, greasing the leaves, then reassembling, is liable to give you a higher ride height because the spring is able to return nearer to it's normal camber. Of course the spring won't be as strong, some of the metal has disappeared into rust, but the result will be drivable, and pass it's MOT.

Incidentally, I've seen those Aeon springs more heavily compressed than that, so you may be able to keep those in service until the vehicle is back on the road. I suggest going to the American site and looking at the static dimensions of the springs A535/65 to judge how much yours are compressed. If they remain compressed for too long they develop cracks in the surface.

I suppose it depends on how often you plan to ride round with a tank full of water!!

Have fun.

PS. One 'beginners mistake'. The bolts that fasten the rear of the spring into the shackles are screwed into the shackle plates. The nut is a lock nut. The mistake is to unscrew the nut then try to press out the bolt, thinking it's 'just' rusted in. It may be, but it needs unscrewing from the shackle, not just hammering out.

HTH

[western]

and pass it's MOT.

IIRC fire appliances are MOT exempt BUT only if the vehicle/pump can actually pump water.

[M&S]

Thank you once again David, much appresiated. I don't intend to carry a full tank of water at all really, it would be good to show the pump operational though. As Western says, fire engines are MOT exempt

I shall try stripping and cleaning the springs as you suggest. We did actually ratchet the chassis down hard when it was on the trailer, to try and prevent any excessive movement of the body (we used wheel straps for lashing down with first so the vehcile was secured to teh trailer. Other lashings were to secure the chassis/body from rocking around), but all that seemed to acheive was the snapping of one of our straps near to home. Shows it must have been moving quite a bit though!

Maybe they haven't come back since then, as you say. It makes sense and it certainly doesn't look as low in the "before collection" photos as it does after collecting. My fault I guess, but at least I've learned and can now sort it out.

Thanks for the reply, I've learned a lot about leaf springs and I thought they were so simple

[M&S]

More wire brushing today, and when I got bored of that (which I am now!) I decided to cut out the front outrigger that needs replacing.

Also, as I wire brush and see rust I keep taking more and more bits out...I think I'm going too far For example, some discoloration (rust marks) in the footwells running from teh dash led me to taking out the dash completely (a strangely difficult task considering...) If I carry on as I am I'll just have a pile of bits and no fire engine left Somebody stop me!!

The dash is suprisingly rusty behind, in fact most of it turned to dust, so something else to look for at Driffield Don't ask me about the wiring, I'll sort that later

Not sure of the best way to progress with the smaller holes behind the dash. I don't really want to use any filler, but then it seems over the top to cut sections out and weld new ones in for such small holes...

[Mike Brownlie]

Stick to one area at a time or you will end up with a pile of bits and loose interest!

I normally start at the rear and work forward as the rear tends to be easier and you get quick results and a motivation boost to tackle the rotten parts!

I have stopped using filler where possible and started using lead as its waterproof unlike the filler.

http://www.ehow.com/how_4693422_do-lead-body-work.html

[M&S]

I have seen lead used on American Hot Rod some time ago Thanks, I shall do some more reading.

[SeriesEwan]

May seem a strange question... I have been looking at your pics & i am wondering how the red & yellow knobs are linked to the transfer box? ( if at all as i cant see any transfer box controls )

[M&S]

May seem a strange question... I have been looking at your pics & i am wondering how the red & yellow knobs are linked to the transfer box? ( if at all as i cant see any transfer box controls )

They are connected, like everything else, by REALLY LONG push rods and linkages. Counted 13 links for the throttle alone

This photo shows the linkages at the box end.

[Mike Brownlie]

how are you progressing with the lovely weather we have been having ?

I remember seeing a series 2b restoration where the guy used a cummins 6bt. I think he was called lefrog or something similar. It made me want one!

I would love to do a modern take on the FC with coil suspension etc but that will have to wait until I have space to do so!

[M&S]

Parts shopping at Driffield this weekend, and hopefully I'll have a box of bits waiting for me when I get home so, with a bit of paint, I'll get the front boxed back up and have it driveable. This week I haven't been able to do much other than search for part numbers and get an shipping order ready, but I intend to spend a solid week getting it "roadworthy" during whit week.

[Phil Hancock]

The rear springs are most likely just made up from the std 8 leaf rears with extra leafs from another set of 8 leaf rears.

[David Sparkes]

The rear springs are most likely just made up from the std 8 leaf rears with extra leafs from another set of 8 leaf rears.

For this to be true you would see leaves of the same length in the spring pile, rather than each leave being longer than the one immediately below it, which is how 'factory' spring piles are constructed.

Lo and behold, the picture shows just that, studied closely, there are 3 leaves matching the length of one of it's neighbours :-)

Thanks Phil.

[M&S]

Good call Phil, hat off to you Just in time as well as I'll be rummeging at the driffield show this weekend so now I can buy a couple of sets of good 109 springs if I see any!

Thanks to you both, help appreciated and "problem" solved

I will try and split/clean these but would like to have some spares handy. I could always sell the spares on later if I don't use them.

[M&S]

Just a few pics to show progress is ongoing. Had a month off because of personal issues but getting stuck back in now! I'm focused on painting the bits that are already off the vehicle and getting ready to put the cab back together, as well as tidying up the radiator and under the "bonnet".

Next step will be remove and replace each wheel one by one, giving the brakes and suspension a check over one corner at a time. And probably more wire brushing and painting!!

[Brian Considine]

my friend 'EARL' on here has this 110FC fire engine.

Interesting seeing another ex Army Fire service IIB FC - I have one & will post a picture of it when I can find out how to do it !

I restored it many years ago & now it needs restoring again (which I've just started).

I'll also see if I can find "Earl"

[ronnie_rotten]

anybody mind if I drag up this resting thread? No? Excellent.

This just came up for sale not too far from me, the reg plates are very similar but not sequential. By the looks of it it's from the same stable.

Is there much value in these 'cconverted forward control 109s'? It's a nice looking thing for sure. ..

[David Sparkes]

... Is there much value in these 'converted forward control 109s'?...

'Value' comes from many people having a use for the roadworthy article.

I'd say 'No' in this case, as the result is either 'just ' a show vehicle, or a lot of work and expense converting it to something usable, like a camper, or mobile workshop. If someone wanted either of those it would be better and more cost effective to start from somewhere else.

If your 'other interest' involves a possible use for a small old fire engine then you can use it 'as is', but there probably aren't many of you with that need, so it's usefulness in that role doesn't add value.

They are probably of more interest to fire engine enthusiasts than Land Rover enthusiasts, but I doubt that makes them valuable.

The only significant USP (Unique Selling Point) is the higher than normal seating position, especially relevant if the example has a second row of high mounted seats, as these give a grandstand view at any outdoor event.

Most Carmichael FT6 fire engines have this second row seating arrangement.

HTH

I wonder if your thread raising will prompt an update from the original poster. That will be good if it does.

[ronnie_rotten]

Well I hoped it would stir an update! I enjoyed finding this thread.

I'm trying to find something I can put the whole family in and series station wagons are few and far between where I'm looking for them. This seemed interesting although would need a degree of 'mutilation' to really make it usable. It's priced at a little under £3000, and I couldn't decide if it was good value or not. I did a double take at first, as I thought it was a forward control which would have made it very interesting!

[daslandroverman]

Go for it? It's something different for the school run?