Chris x Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Morning chaps, I currently have a 200tdi fitted to my series 3. I bought a 5 speed 200tdi Defender gear/transferbox off ebay a few months ago and am now prepared to fit it! I will idealy be removing the old gearbox from the bottom, cutting out the existing gearbox crossmember and fitting the defender gearbox and welding in a new crossmember. Could anyone who has done this before give me any advice or tips on what to do, what way to go about it. It will be taking place on my drive Also a few questions: I assume I will have to buy a new 200tdi defender clutch, cluctch plate, flywheel as my series 3 one woudlnt fit? Will I have to get some prop shafts made up or will the originals fit straight into place? Could I use a Defender/discovery gearbox cross member to use to hold the box up, as it will fit between the chassis and its pretty much there? (think I have one laying around) Will a defender transmission tunnel bolt straight in and fit against the new levers or will I have to hack my Series one to pieces? Thats all thats I can think of for now! Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MECCANO Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 The Clutch centre plate is definately different(more splines). You will need some pro shafts mad if you are leaving the engine in the standard position. The front will need to be longer and the back about 5 inches shorter. I think you might find the discovery/ defender cross member sticks out beneath the chassis rails and the engine and gear box sit alot higher in a coiler. The tunnel will be completely different,its completely the wrong shape, you might even have to hack your seat box a bit. Probably easier to start from scratch, although i beleive jericho used a cut down defender tunnel. To be honest, i don't think its worht the effort and expense unless you are running a more powerful engine. A good condition series box is just as good if driven appropriately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris x Posted June 27, 2011 Author Share Posted June 27, 2011 Thanks. My current box is fine, its just the gearing. Traveling at 50mph (satnav) and the engine is reving its bolocks off! I could fit an overdrive, but that will cost me more money. Also, my current box crunches alot which is a pain, so the defender box should be like driving another car with its syncro(sp)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MECCANO Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Thanks. My current box is fine, its just the gearing. Traveling at 50mph (satnav) and the engine is reving its bolocks off! I could fit an overdrive, but that will cost me more money. Also, my current box crunches alot which is a pain, so the defender box should be like driving another car with its syncro(sp)! How about higher ratio diffs? I use to run with over drive, so forgot about the low gearing. But the cost of the props ( if done professionally) won't be far off an overdrive. Plus series boxes are sooooo much easier to rebuild Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris x Posted June 27, 2011 Author Share Posted June 27, 2011 Will have to get some quotes on props, think there is a place near me that does them. Do you mean diffs within the axle? If so, I have some discovery axles ready to put on! But I was going to tackle the gearbox first. To be fair, running around town its fine, but its used 99.9% of the time on main roads to play days, which is usualy a 60mile round trip at least. Thats when it gets annoying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Its going to cost you more then fitting an overdrive.............. If its reliability you want then yes go with the lt77, (i broke too many series boxes) diffs would be even cheaper, but you will loose low range gearing. The 5 speed alone will not make it any quicker unless you have a 1:1003 transfercase, with a 1.4 from a defender it will be worse (lower) then the series box you have now. I run an lt77 with a 1.1003 tc and its still geared a bit low (4.7 diffs) It will hapilly cruise at 50mph all day, but top speed is still at 75mph, with the 200 screaming its bolloks off................ As to other stuff, i used defender floor panels and also the tunnel with some trimming. Just ask if you need any further info. G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris x Posted June 27, 2011 Author Share Posted June 27, 2011 Ok, thats good to know. Suprised a defender gear box would make it slower. Looks like it will be worth fitting my disco axles at the same time then. Cheers for the help, will give you a pm if I get suck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MECCANO Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 Ok, thats good to know. Suprised a defender gear box would make it slower. Looks like it will be worth fitting my disco axles at the same time then. Cheers for the help, will give you a pm if I get suck! I beleive that they tried to reduce the speed of bits wurring around, in an attempt to reduce noise and losses. Disco axles on leaves? or using coils? Leaves a whole other kettle of fish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris x Posted June 28, 2011 Author Share Posted June 28, 2011 Fitting disco axles with leafs springs. Why? Whats wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicks90 Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 because it aint a straight forward swap! Have a search for a post from les about fitting coiler axles to a series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haulie Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Rear axel is not a huge problem. Front is a complete different story Haulie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris x Posted June 28, 2011 Author Share Posted June 28, 2011 Yeah, have read through all those threads before. Its not my main vehicle, and I have axles laying around, sure I will be able to work around things! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secondjeremy Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 All 90's and 110's (even 2.5D's) use 3.54 diffs as fitted to Range Rovers - and with the 200TDi you will have enough power to take advantage of the diffs - in fact it will of course be geared the same as a later vehicle. Its a straight swap for the Rover diff (be a little careful over the number of splines - your S3 will have 10, some 3.54 diffs may have multi-splined diff wheels.) Your speedo will need re-calibrating - indicated 22MPH is about 30MPH on 205 x 16 tyres. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris x Posted June 29, 2011 Author Share Posted June 29, 2011 Sounds easier then just changine the diffs rather than the complete axle, although I wont have disks all round then. Dont suppose you would know if my 200tdi disco axles (H reg) would fit my 1982 Series 3 axles? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MECCANO Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Sounds easier then just changine the diffs rather than the complete axle, although I wont have disks all round then. Dont suppose you would know if my 200tdi disco axles (H reg) would fit my 1982 Series 3 axles? Thanks There are a few draw backs from converting the axles... its not all great. Positives: Better turning circle disc brakes.. stopping in a straight line. Negatives: You will loose 20mm ground clearance if you don't use military shackles. The diff angle with standard shackle, comes close to the drivers side engine mount. So much so, that if you have flexi parrabolics and you brake heavily, it will catch if you don't get the angle grinder out. The steering will be be heavier as the swival housings have shorter arms. The brakes won't be much more powerful than a decent set of drums, if you use the series master cyclinder. You need to get a coilers master cyclinder that works at a higher pressure, and the necessary pressure reduction valve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retroanaconda Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 The main benefit is the disc brakes, they need less cleaning after mud/water and they don't require as much maintenance/adjustment over time. However they don't offer much of a braking performance increase over a well set up drum brake system in my opinion, my 88" stops just as well as my 90. Probably weighs less too, which helps I'm sure Aside from that you're not gaining much. No strength upgrade since the Disco axles will have 10-spline centres same as your current ones, and a reduction in ground clearance. If the gearing is your issue I'd fit the Disco diffs into the Series axles and be done with it. If you're only using the vehicle off road, then disc brakes are worth doing, however I wouldn't go down the coiler axle route. Bolt-on kits exist, and though they're not cheap, they're a better way of doing it in my opinion. I wouldn't trust my welding for something as critical as axle-spring mounts, however if you're got a friendly pro welder then go for it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris x Posted June 29, 2011 Author Share Posted June 29, 2011 Welding isnt really an issue, have decent welding machines and my gf's grandad is a welder by trade so thats that sorted! Heavy steering isnt really an issue as I have converted it to power steering. I have military shackels allready fitted, and dont mind to much about getting an angle grinder to it! Cant work out why I will loose 20mm ground clearance though? I guess the main things are the brakes, after off roading at mud monsters the weekend before last the brakes were shocking, it was pulling all over the place due to the carp that had got within the drums, wheels locking e.t.c. By the time I had reached home (40miles ish) they were back to normal. I have rebuilt the axles/brakes and do agree that they are most likely as good as disks, but the issue is after off roading. Another thing (I will get flamed for this ) is that I prefer the coiler axles as it makes the land rover look much more better due to the wider track width! Sad, I know. Just got to get around to doing it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 If its gearing change the diffs, but you loose low range ratio (30% off hand i belive) If its discs you want then fit a kit or do them yourself like i did. http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=22910 If you want both and also have a wider stance then fit complete axles, simple no? You loose 20mm due to the track rod at the rear of the axle on a coiler and also to keep the castor angle close to standard, unless you take it to the front by using a lhd swivel. The problem is usually the track rod and the leaf spring tend to try to occupy the same space, hence the 20mm spacers. It has been done in various ways. I did one by moving the trackrod to the front, but you mess up the akerman angle slightly that way, it still drove well and straight. Just make sure you get the castor right and the see that the diff at full bump clears everything. G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MECCANO Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Welding isnt really an issue, have decent welding machines and my gf's grandad is a welder by trade so thats that sorted! Heavy steering isnt really an issue as I have converted it to power steering. I have military shackels allready fitted, and dont mind to much about getting an angle grinder to it! Cant work out why I will loose 20mm ground clearance though? I guess the main things are the brakes, after off roading at mud monsters the weekend before last the brakes were shocking, it was pulling all over the place due to the carp that had got within the drums, wheels locking e.t.c. By the time I had reached home (40miles ish) they were back to normal. I have rebuilt the axles/brakes and do agree that they are most likely as good as disks, but the issue is after off roading. Another thing (I will get flamed for this ) is that I prefer the coiler axles as it makes the land rover look much more better due to the wider track width! Sad, I know. Just got to get around to doing it! Power steering, sounds like you have it in the bag then. I always think of the steering as going to the gym... if i ever went that is! Its only 20mm if you use standard shackles. If you rotate the axle to the correct castor angle with military shackles fitted, you don't have to add 20mm to the axle blocks for the track rod to clear. Which is all good. Wde axles you say.. SPAM: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 If the whole issue is about the gearing, then go for the overdrive or just a diff swap using 10-spline 3.54 diffs from an early-ish RRC, Discovery or 90/110. My 200Tdi 109 will run happily at 60mph with standard transmission +overdrive and can manage 80-85mph if you don't mind losing your hearing. It's a bit too raucus for my liking to cruise at 70mph, but 60 is fine. Using an overdrive and 3.54 diffs (the Tdi will cope) will give very relaxed cruising at 70mph and good mpg, though the diff swap screws up your low range too, leaving the first-low gearing a bit tall for hill descents or crawling unless you fit the SII Suffix B 2.81:1 low range gears to the transfer box (about £120 for the pair and a direct swap for the 2.35:1 existing gears). I have already done the later in preparation for 3.54 diffs. If you think about it, the LT77 gearing is going to be broadly similar to a Series box with overdrive, so the final gearing is going to depend on the transfer box and diff ratios. Series use a 1.15 ratio in the transfer box and 4.71 diff ratio, while the Defender uses 1.4 and 3.54 respectively. The combined final gearing is taller on the Defender, but you can see that a Defender transmission with standard Series axles gives a very low gearing. You have already identified much of the other work required for fitting a Defender transmission - chassis mods, prop shafts, hand brake lever/mechanism, cab floor and seat base. Don't forget you'll also need to find a way to connect the Defender transmission to the Series speedo, unless you plan to fit a Defender speedo (which would need recalibrating if you use std Series axles). If you want to swap axles just for the gearing change, don't bother. If it's also for the disc brakes and improved steering lock, then Meccano's Lightweight and Toyrover's 109 are good examples and I have been asking a lot of advice from both of them in preparing my axles (110 Sals rear and Discovery front) for such a swap. I found I am losing just 8mm of front ground clearance compared to the standard axle, but this will be compensated for by adding a third leaf to my TIC parabolics to restore some of the camber lost to the vehicle being overweight - I have a lot of heavy extras on the vehicle it already has the poise of a Wlof 110 with the HD rear springs and a military chassis and shackle combination. It's a lot of work, though, and not a cheap conversion if done properly. You can see what I have done in preparation so far on my blog. I haven't finished it yet because of the costs involved of refurbishing the axles, buying parts like additional spring leafs and spring pins, 88" rear spring plates to move the front dampers out of the way of the track rod, a Defender (one piece) track rod to replace the (two-piece) Discovery rod, new brake pipe and fittings, a Defender master cylinder and servo... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 I've been reading this and seem to have missed a point somewhere.....why do you lose 20mm of ground clearance when fitting disco axles to leaf springs? Curious because I've been plotting that thought for our off-roader.....if we ever build it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 I've been reading this and seem to have missed a point somewhere.....why do you lose 20mm of ground clearance when fitting disco axles to leaf springs? Curious because I've been plotting that thought for our off-roader.....if we ever build it! The front end is where the height is lost - the diff sits further outboard on the later axles and the beginning of the swell of the diff housing is above the right spring. This, combined with the position of the track rod over the leaf springs, requires taller saddles, raising the axle further above the top of the springs. The same might be true of the rear axle on 88" conversions, given that the rear springs on an 88" are under the chassis rails like the front - I'm working on a 109 which has rear springs outboard of the chassis, so has no spring/diff separation issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MECCANO Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 As snagger says, the coiler axle has the track rod on the rear of the axle, and if you tried to set the axle of standard height axle blocks and standard castor angle. The trackrod would be bang smack where the leaves are. Adding 20mm to the blocks gives you the clearance for the track rod, but lowers the car. If you use extended military shackles ( which would double the castor angle) and then rotate the axle back so that it is the standard castor angle to compensate. You gain clearance with out having to extend the blocks much. The problem comes if you want to go back ot standard shackles again... you would end up with no castor angle and very wobbley steering. Most parrabolics give you +20mm. so if you have these and you then extended the blocks by 20mm you end up where you started... so no major probs. Another thing to note. Extending the blocks help to reduce axle wrap slightly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Now I see, thanks folks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris x Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share Posted July 4, 2011 Some really good info in here guys, thanks. Think im going to convert the axles first. The series gearbox is still managable at the moment. I shall report back when either the axles/gearbox is in and complete! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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