cackshifter Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Would only need to achieve say 30mph and last a short while (say 30 minutes) but would be great for pootling around London (if you so wished), hybrid therefore congestion charge / LEZ exempt. Sorry to be a bit off topic but.. if hybrids are LEZ exempt how serious a hybrid does it have to be? Mind went back to RS1600 escorts racing against American iron some while ago - they fitted heater fans to the escorts to token 'supercharge' them which elevated them to the top class - then they could compete. If you stick on say a starter motor good enough to drive it a few yards is that hybrid enough to be LEZ exempt or is it type approved or something? I guess I'm wondering where a decent starter ends and a hybrid begins. Nigel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Poore Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Sorry to be a bit off topic but.. if hybrids are LEZ exempt how serious a hybrid does it have to be? Mind went back to RS1600 escorts racing against American iron some while ago - they fitted heater fans to the escorts to token 'supercharge' them which elevated them to the top class - then they could compete. If you stick on say a starter motor good enough to drive it a few yards is that hybrid enough to be LEZ exempt or is it type approved or something? I guess I'm wondering where a decent starter ends and a hybrid begins. Nigel No idea to be honest, I've had some experience of the LEZ and no one knows how to correctly classify anything to the point where Land Rover just held up their hands and said anything pre Td5 was unknown. It's apparently meant to be based on whether the vehicle was intended as a commercial vehicle but they don't know what the definitions of those are... Station Wagons are meant to be exempt but because of LR's letter pre Td5's won't be but my 300Tdi is still saying it's exempt. Then you get into the area where a Disco has the same engine but because it was designed as a people carrier not a goods vehicle it's exempt regardless of the engine... So who knows? No one in authority in my experience and subsequently no one else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zardos Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Sorry to be a bit off topic but.. if hybrids are LEZ exempt how serious a hybrid does it have to be? Mind went back to RS1600 escorts racing against American iron some while ago - they fitted heater fans to the escorts to token 'supercharge' them which elevated them to the top class - then they could compete. If you stick on say a starter motor good enough to drive it a few yards is that hybrid enough to be LEZ exempt or is it type approved or something? I guess I'm wondering where a decent starter ends and a hybrid begins. Nigel May be Vosa has the answer see section 5.2.4 Identification of HEVs and EVs of http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/Hybrid%20Electric%20Vehicles%20and%20Electric%20Vehicles%20Inspection%20Standards.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrKev Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 So, basically, according to the flowchart, if the following can be found, there's no need to inspect any further: " Livery and model markings " " Large battery compartments on roof " ...A few stickers saying 'Hybrid Electric Vehicle", and some 'batteries on the roof' (why there?) would make it a hybrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 (edited) or • "Hybrid vehicle (HV)" means a vehicle powered by a hybrid power train. • "Hybrid electric vehicle (HEV)" means a vehicle powered by a hybrid electric power train; • "Hybrid power train" means a power train with at least two different energy converters and two different energy storage systems (on-board the vehicle) for the purpose of vehicle propulsion. • "Hybrid electric power train" means a power train that, for the purpose of mechanical propulsion, draws energy from both of the following on-vehicle sources of stored energy/power: o consumable fuel o an electrical energy/power storage device (e.g.: battery, capacitor, flywheel/generator ...) and • “Power train" means the system of energy storage device(s), energy converter(s) and transmission(s) that converts stored energy to mechanical energy delivered at the wheels for propulsion of the vehicle. So based on all that one of those old mopeds with pedals would be a hybrid... so as such you could add pedals to your landrover to make it a hybrid! Some sort of belt and pulley mechanism on the transfer box pto and get the passengers to do some work Wouldn't have to go fast or actually be particularly practical.... but it would be a hybrid! then you could drive around burning fossils to your hearts content. EDIT: I forgot energy storage .... leave a Mars Bar and some Lucozade on the dash Edited September 28, 2011 by CwazyWabbit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zardos Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Or if you have a rusty floor you could do a Fred Flintstone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusty_wingnut Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 more like it! I am sorely tempted to bang one fo my old Campag groupsets onto the 90 and present it for inspection, "yes Mr. VOSA it is the Record 11speed with compact chainwheels for better off road ability" Realistically, if there was a way of providing electrical power into the transfer box, run off one of the many batteries most people have on board, with a big alternator, is that a hybrid? Surely at that point you could fit a cheapo electric motor to "aid propulsion" and reduce engine emissions? Simonr!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 I've had that idea for a while - pop a winch motor onto the PTO, et voila hybrid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Poore Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Hmm, need bigger motor... Very rough calculation means that (I think) an electric motor on the PTO (excluding the transfer box ratio / diff ratio for the moment since that complicates things in my mind without paper) means that you'd need a motor capable of ~170Nm torque to get an unladen 110 moving. Maybe a Gigglepin style box for all four of the motors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusty_wingnut Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 With some clever electronics surely it could kick in at cruise rather than needing huge power to get a vehicle rolling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Hmm, need bigger motor... Very rough calculation means that (I think) an electric motor on the PTO (excluding the transfer box ratio / diff ratio for the moment since that complicates things in my mind without paper) means that you'd need a motor capable of ~170Nm torque to get an unladen 110 moving. Maybe a Gigglepin style box for all four of the motors. The 3.54:1 of the diff and the 1.41:1 or 3.3 of the transfer box would significantly reduce that though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 I've been through this with VOSA in order to get my Freelander reclassified as Electric with zero Tax. They said they get a few people claiming their starter motor makes the car a hybrid. They said, in order to be reclassified, I would need to present a build log showing how the conversion was implemented, much like you would for an IVA test. It would also need to be inspected just to make sure it actually drives on electric. They didn't say how far or fast it had to be able to go, just that it be demonstrably usable on electric power. I guess to make sure it was not just a starter motor cobbled such that it would just move it. For my next trick (build) I'm planning a hybrid Range Rover - and I may just have found the perfect vehicle for it. A Soft face dash Classic RR - one of my favourite LR's. The plan is to use a huge Forklift motor I have with a DIY speed controller driving into the PTO via a 2:1 reduction. In general you need about 10:1 reduction to the wheels for an average car. Fork motors generally run on 24 or 48v but the windings will often cope with 150 to 200v - at which they spit out quite high torque & speed. I'll cut the fuel tank in half and the motor will occupy the other half's space. I want to use a smaller diesel engine, say 2L or so - as I plan to use the electric for starting off and switch to diesel when the speed goes above 50 or when the battery pack is low. Also have a 'sport' mode which uses both at the same time. For Batteries, I'll test it with Lead acid and once it works well enough, swap them for LiFePo's which should give me 30 to 40 miles on electric alone - enough for 90% of my total mileage. While it might be more sensible to start with a lighter, more efficient car - I would rather lick batteries than drive most of them day to day. So I'll use a car I like driving! Si I'll convert the transfer to selectable 4 wheel drive and use FWH's on the front to reduce the drag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Poore Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 With some clever electronics surely it could kick in at cruise rather than needing huge power to get a vehicle rolling. That is very true although in terms of saving fuel (in the scenario where you're pottering around London) then using as much of the electrics as possible would be most beneficial. Transforming a Land Rover lump (thinking my 300Tdi) into something that's efficient at stop-starting is probably non-trivial (haven't thought about it to be honest) and I'm guessing that having it ticking over the whole time isn't going to have that much of an effect in reducing fuel consumption. The 3.54:1 of the diff and the 1.41:1 or 3.3 of the transfer box would significantly reduce that though. That's what I realised but couldn't be bothered to add them into the calculations . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 34Nm should be alright from a small electric motor (if my gearing math is right, which it probably isn't). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 .... That's what I realised but couldn't be bothered to add them into the calculations . Fair enough, you did say you hadn't bothered with them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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