zim Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Evening, I pulled out my p38's 4.6 today to go in my challenge buggy, which is currently a 4.2 non serp. My 4.2 is currently running MS with edis. I got the brackets and trigger wheel from Nige to fit to the front of my gems 4.6 serp. BUT, when i got the engine out i was looking at the crank sensor ? I haven't checked where the gap is in relation to TDC, but a look on google shows that they have 35 teeth and a missing 1. Same as an edis trigger wheel. Has anyone run MS with edis using the standard crank sensor ? It would make my life easier as i run a crank driven hydraulic pump and having a 'loose' trigger wheel makes mounting things awkward. I had a quick search and found this thread : http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=73515 Here's my missing tooth, excuse the oil leak from the sump : From google : G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRecklessEngineer Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 It might be the same as EDIS, but I don't think it is correct in relation to TDC. MS might be persuaded to use it, but I think EDIS will struggle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zim Posted March 12, 2013 Author Share Posted March 12, 2013 I know this isn't megasquirt, but there seem to be a lot of similar aspects to it : http://www.lloydspecialistdevelopments.co.uk/assets/files/Downloads/Rover%20V8%20DIS%20Kit%20Instructions%201.6%20Canems%20GEMS.pdf Page 12 : Rotate the engine until No.1 cylinder is at TDC as indicated by OEM timing marks. Check No.1cylinder is at TDC very carefully with a long probe or screwdriver. Please do check the accuracy of damper rim TDC markings (we have seen them as far as 10 degrees out!) 2. Count the number of trigger wheel teeth between the Crank VR sensor to the missing tooth, in the direction of crankshaft rotation. In this example the missing tooth is 6 teeth or 60 degrees after the Crank VR sensor. This means the missing tooth passes the crank sensor 60 degrees before cylinder 1 is at TDC Should work then as we have 45 degrees to play with on MS ? Oh, or : http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=53572 The output signal from the CKP sensor is obtainedfrom the magnetic path being made and broken as thereluctor ring teeth pass the sensor tip. The reluctorring has 35 teeth and one missing tooth spaced at10°intervals. The missing tooth is positioned at20°after TDC. Erm..... ? I'll have to check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Interesting, what year is the lump? I was fairly certain on my 1995 P38 4.0 is was a 36-2 tooth wheel, but as your images point out, yours is definitely a 36-1 wheel. On the Lexus 4.0 I squirted, I just removed the original sensor (though it quite possibly would have worked with EDIS anyways) and bolted in place the standard one that Nige supplies, albeit with a washer or two to space it from the ring a bit. You could do similar, or even drill a snug hole where you need the sensor in the engine backplate/TC cover plate or even gearbox bell housing if it's not in the right place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zim Posted March 12, 2013 Author Share Posted March 12, 2013 Mine is a 1994 / 1995. If the 4 bolt holes are equally spaced and concentric, then i could possibly rotate it 90°, with a little bit of adapting.This will now put the gap -20 + 90 = 70° BTDC. So i could trim it 10° in the settings. G This is the sensor : Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRecklessEngineer Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 If it's possible that you can rotate it as you suggest, then EDIS will probably play. If not, then MS with direct coil drivers should play - although I've never done this, so can't really advise further! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 OK, rethinking a bit, and knowing you are not shy with a welder, there's nothing to stop you cutting off one of the teeth in the right position and re-welding it where the current gap is. Then pinch the two prongs on each together, and make a bracket to hold the normal MS VR sensor in place of the old one. I suspect you want to get this right from the off, otherwise it is engine out time, do you have an engine stand to run the engine up on on MS? Could test the P38 sensor to see if it is going to play nicely with EDIS or not. I'd strongly suggest not going down direct coil drivers if you can help it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Ah just realised, Thor is a 60-2 wheel, hence my confusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zim Posted March 12, 2013 Author Share Posted March 12, 2013 Torque convertor removed: Flex plate removed. Notice dowel / locator pin at nearly 12 o'clock: With the engine at TDC, the missing tooth is 2 teeth behind the crank shaft sensor. Rotate the fly wheel round 90° and redrill the locator hole. Notice the marker pen lines from before. A bit difficult to see, but the missing tooth is now 7 teeth ahead of the crank sensor when at TDC. I can make adjustment with megatune i think. The engine will go in later this week. Hope it works. G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Could you drill out those rivets and re-rivet the trigger wheel in the right spot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zim Posted March 13, 2013 Author Share Posted March 13, 2013 Could you drill out those rivets and re-rivet the trigger wheel in the right spot? Yes. But you can only turn it in 90 degree increments, which is the same as what i've done. I didn't want to re-rivet it back on as i don't trust (aftermarket) rivets for a ring that's spinning at 4,000 rpm next to a sensor. G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 Zim Checked for you re call, you can trim in Spark settings - or + 45 degrees so yes your OK with 2 teeth out Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 This is the sensor : I'm confused as to why you'd change the sensor - it's 2-pin so presumably must be a VR type, as long as you get the polarity correct EDIS should work with it, no faffing required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zim Posted March 13, 2013 Author Share Posted March 13, 2013 I'm confused as to why you'd change the sensor - it's 2-pin so presumably must be a VR type, as long as you get the polarity correct EDIS should work with it, no faffing required. I'm not going to change the sensor. That's the type thats on my engine. If you look at my first pic in post #9 you can see the blue plug. G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 I'm confused as to why you'd change the sensor - it's 2-pin so presumably must be a VR type, as long as you get the polarity correct EDIS should work with it, no faffing required. I only suggested it if it didn't play with EDIS, fingers crossed it will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 Yes. But you can only turn it in 90 degree increments, which is the same as what i've done. I didn't want to re-rivet it back on as i don't trust (aftermarket) rivets for a ring that's spinning at 4,000 rpm next to a sensor.G If you use proper quality rivets, I don't see why it wouldn't work. And if you redrill the ring, you could even get it spot-on. Of course, redrilling would take a lot of careful measuring, but it should be possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escape Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 I'd strongly suggest not going down direct coil drivers if you can help it.... A bit off topic, but why would you avoid direct coil drivers? I have a MS kit lying around (since last year) that should end up in my 4.6 P38a ('96) and I would also want to try and reuse the standard CKPsensor. Preferably without having to take the engine or gearbox out again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 Coil apck driver are (IMHO) very finicky and can be a giant pain to get sorted Istruggletogate11 spent an age having issues andswitched to EDIS and never looked back EDIS is a replacement for DCDs, many people I think steer away from EDIS as they (EDIS *s) are tricky to get as never in this country, so DCD are an "easier" route for them (sod the customer sort of thing) Luckily I have supplies of these and I still think EDIS is a robust options vs DCDs I am sure there will be others along who can add to the above with far more knowledge on them than me but I now try to avaiod working on DCD powerd MS esp when the owner says "I have a problem" ..... Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 DCD is electrically difficult to fit into the MS, as you're putting 4x driver transistors in the main ECU, with high currents into coils with large voltage spikes / EMF coming back and trying to escape through the ECU's ground connection. Most people who do DCD end up cutting a 2nd D connector into the back panel & running separate power/ground/coil connections through that and isolating it from the rest of the ECU to prevent software resets & interference. I'm not saying it's not doable, or that it's bad (DCD does open up more options like different trigger wheel setups, spark-cut rev limiting, etc.) but for most people EDIS is a plug-and-play idiot-proof system - if you get the wires in the right order, it will run, and the connection to the ECU is just two small signal wires with no nasty spikes. Modern cars often have the coil drive incorporated into the coil/pack itself for these reasons, and that's certainly the option I'd consider if I was going away from EDIS, but for now it's a good system and it works, and there's enough millions of EDIS modules out there that we're not going to run out any time soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escape Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Hmm, I understand the difficulties, but I'd still prefer to spent some more work on the DCD and not have to fit a trigger wheel. So I'll certainly be keeping an eye on this thread. Filip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zim Posted March 15, 2013 Author Share Posted March 15, 2013 If you use proper quality rivets, I don't see why it wouldn't work. And if you redrill the ring, you could even get it spot-on. Of course, redrilling would take a lot of careful measuring, but it should be possible. You couldn't get it spot on. You can only rotate it 90°. If you look at my first picture in post #9 you will see where the torque convertor bolts onto the flex plate. These 4 bolts are accessed through the ring - which has 4 big holes. It's a lot more work to re-rivet the thing than just move the whole lot. But yes, it's possible. I have been making a new hydrualic pump drive so not done any more on this side of things. Going to remove my 4.2 this weekend. G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Hmm, I understand the difficulties, but I'd still prefer to spent some more work on the DCD and not have to fit a trigger wheel. So I'll certainly be keeping an eye on this thread.Filip Once you have the machining done for a serp MSing, the rest is bolt on and very easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 EDIS or DCD are about as hard as each other (which is "not that hard"), they just have different obstacles to faff with. EDIS needs the trigger wheel, DCD needs more electronics. I think DCD with ignitor coils (where the driver is in the coil) is a very nice solution, and it's what I'd recommend to those like Filip who want to do DCD. However, the benefits/drawbacks are so minimal between that & EDIS that it's not enough to make me want to swap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Why would you need high voltage and spikes near MS? Using the GEMS coil packs, as Filip would like to do, seems fairly straightforward: Ignition Coils (Z261)The ignition system on the petrol engine consists ofa “DIS” format, a Direct Ignition System, comprisingof four double ended coils operating on the “wastedspark” technique. The circuit to each coil iscompleted via switching within the ECM (Z132),allowing the coil to charge up and then fire. Itproduces sparks in two cylinders simultaneously, onecylinder on the compression stroke and one on theexhaust stroke. Due to relatively easy ionisation ofthe fuel/air mixture in the cylinder undercompression, the coil will dissipate more energy inthat cylinder than the other, so very little energy iswasted in the system.Failure of a coil will result in lack of sparks in twocylinders (coil 1 feeds cylinders 1/6, coil 2 feedscylinders 5/8, coil 3 feeds cylinders 4/7 and coil 4feeds cylinders 2/3). This results in a misfire.This relay is ignition key controlled and supplies afeed to the coils, evaporative emission canisterpurge valve and heated oxygen sensor. When theignition key is turned off, supply to the coils is cutimmediately. Not sure how grounding a few wires is different from a PIP/SAW apart from it being less prone to interference? Not sure if MS supports this system out of the box though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 It's the flyback from the coils, back down the low voltage wires that needs addressing, if you address it at the coils it's no problem, if in the MS box, potentially a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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