Bowie69 Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Do you have any comments about the execution of the one link, Bill? It is truly bolt on, but I am sure you gain a little axle tube clearance by just weding it all to the tube, but for a kit it looked 'ok' to me, without seeing it in the flesh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Do you have any comments about the execution of the one link, Bill? It is truly bolt on, but I am sure you gain a little axle tube clearance by just weding it all to the tube, but for a kit it looked 'ok' to me, without seeing it in the flesh. I actually think the kit looks fine, with the only reservation I have being the use of radius arm bushings for the centre mount. The forces are different, but I never had any success with radius arm or trailing arm bushings for the chassis end of ink of my present 3 link, and ended up adapting an A frame ball joint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Cheers Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Is the kit still available then ? It seems they come in to being and then disappear - ie the safarigard 3 link. With the current one being that 4 link we all discussed recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Is the kit still available then ? It seems they come in to being and then disappear - ie the safarigard 3 link. With the current one being that 4 link we all discussed recently. Apparently the One Link kits are or were built to order. I do hope that the unqualified negative criticism I read on the Devon thread from one member in particular didn't dissuade potential customers from considering what I would consider to be a pretty good bit of kit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Indeed... if you were serious, I would try PMing 'box' on Devon to see if they are still doing it: http://www.devon4x4.com/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&task=userProfile&user=622&Itemid=117 I don't know who he is in real life, but his Ebay shop looks all RC 4x4 rather than the full sized stuff now... Chappers on D4x4 would probably have a number for them as well. Interesting you say an A-frame BJ has been more successful Bill, what were the issues surrounding the radius arm bushing? Too much give and not enough control? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSD Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 This vid would suggest flexi suspension is all you need https://www.youtube.com/embed/nq2jY1trxqg?rel=0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Drumstick Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 I guess I'm a little late to the party here. But for me it depends on the exact vehicle in question, ie how it's stock suspension works to begin with. And the sort of terrain you want to drive on. Personally I think a medium to well setup suspension system and an off road biased TCS is all I need. Lockers sound great in theory, but I can count on 1 hand the times I'd have truly "needed" one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelw Posted October 17, 2013 Author Share Posted October 17, 2013 I guess I'm a little late to the party here. But for me it depends on the exact vehicle in question, ie how it's stock suspension works to begin with. And the sort of terrain you want to drive on. Personally I think a medium to well setup suspension system and an off road biased TCS is all I need. Lockers sound great in theory, but I can count on 1 hand the times I'd have truly "needed" one. I am picking my way through this as it is mainly for my Discovery, but others will find the discussion a good source of inspiration for what ever they are driving. I can think of a good few occasions where Diff locks would have seen me out of interesting recovery situations where I have had to be winched out, winched up, and winched back over when I slid sideways into a gulley and needed pulled back over onto my wheels enough to drive out and that could have been avoided had my back axle had a locker as the weight was on the down hill wheel and the up hill wheels just broke traction due to not enough weight on them and it was a bump when I came to a stop, I do however put most of it down to youthful stupidity and lack of experience for getting into those situations in the first place. But just because I got older and wiser does not mean I am willing to pass up a bit of fun on a play day or get back to the real world after exploring some off the beaten track scenery. I read through the D44 stuff regards the one-link, kind of miffed as to the lacking of any real discussion but there was a lot of bashing going on!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Idris Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 From what I've seen of one-link it lets you get to a point of serious lateral instability given some decent shocks. If you put a stout anti-roll bar on it, you'd be back to normal operation. All the bushes do in the normal radious arms is act like an anti-roll bar anyway. If you've nearly rolled a tractor or tele-handler though, you get to feel 100% unrestricted articulation, and it's a bit sudden I quite like the idea of whacking the front wheel and the force traveling neatly and directly into the chassis rail on the factory system. For me 4 link feels the better way to get a flex that is only restricted by the spring system. Or 3 link if you haven't any room? The truck I looked at while at LRS6 had a very neat 4 link, but like the American ones I've liked, it has the sump well away from the axel. Getting these two parts away from each other seems the key to good flex, rather than a particular set up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 As eluded by someone else in this thread (Bill maybe?) often the fact that a truck is about to roll over is just silly soft springing in an attempt to get flex, because of poor suspension design elsewhere (radius arms....) If you had a suspension setup at the front that was as free to move as the rear suspension on a LR (which is actually pretty good, and easy to get a lot better), you could run higher poundage springs, keep your side-slope stability, and go round corners on tarmac without scraping the door handles on the ground, but when off-road, and needing flex, you would still get it, as it would be a BALANCED setup. My previous statement was that I wanted to improve the front end as too stiff, so the aim is to balance it front to rear, reaching maximum flex on 18" airshox isn't really the goal here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 I think that one link looks rather marvellous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Indeed... if you were serious, I would try PMing 'box' on Devon to see if they are still doing it: http://www.devon4x4.com/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&task=userProfile&user=622&Itemid=117 I don't know who he is in real life, but his Ebay shop looks all RC 4x4 rather than the full sized stuff now... Chappers on D4x4 would probably have a number for them as well. Interesting you say an A-frame BJ has been more successful Bill, what were the issues surrounding the radius arm bushing? Too much give and not enough control? As I mentioned, the compression forces acting upon the bushings of a multi link system under drive or when braking are not the same and can be considerable compared to a One Link,where high compression forces are really only occasional, as when the front wheels strike an obstacle that tries to push the axle backwards. Drive forces acting upon a front One link bush are mainly vertical up when braking, and down when pulling, and on reflection I have changed my mind and now think a rear trailing arm chassis bushing is up to the job. A lot of criticism of One Links centres around the single point of attachement to the chassis, and the fear of what would happen if that single bolt fails. However if one does the maths, the forces acting on that single bolt are often less than the forces that the individual bolts of a multi link suspension occasionally must cope with. On the Cambridge One Link for example, the compressive force of pushing, pulling or stopping the vehicle are fed directly into the bushing, not the bolt. One person can push a LandRover on level ground, so that force is not particularly high, even on a 45 degree gradient. The shear forces acting on the bolt when the front axle is pulling is also not that high and is dependant on the distance from the centre of the front axle to the pivot bushing. I'm no engineer, but a rough example is that if the front axle is transmitting 3000 lb ft of torque, and the effective link length is 3 ft, then the shear force acting on the bolt is a paltry 1000 lbs, well within the capacity of the 1" diameter bolt I would think. The forces for braking can be much higher of course, but still within safe limits even with the bolt in single shear, and the force spike is absorbed by the bushing rubber anyway. The actual effective link length is more like 2'6", but do your own maths, as it is not my strong point this early in the morning. My own one link, due to the type of bushing I'm using places the bolt in double shear, but that is probably overkill on my part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Thanks Bill. Came across this on my travels, some crazy thinking going on, scroll down to the line drawings, seems pretty original to me... http://g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=99&t=147046 And also, a 'woblink'? Seems a reasonable way to package things up quite tidily.... http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/86563-Has-anyone-heard-of-a-WOBlink Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Thanks Bill. Came across this on my travels, some crazy thinking going on, scroll down to the line drawings, seems pretty original to me... http://g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=99&t=147046 And also, a 'woblink'? Seems a reasonable way to package things up quite tidily.... http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/86563-Has-anyone-heard-of-a-WOBlink Thanks Bowie. As it happens, I have communicated with Josh, the builder of the M151 Mutt a couple of times, and he claims that the offset One Links work a treat in handling and to cancel torque roll. With mechanical linkage steering I don't think the Woblink would be applicable to the front axle due to bump steer issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Re: Woblink, you are of course correct, I woke at 3am wondering how stupid could I be, as you rightly say, bump steer would be an issue.... as axle remains central to chassis, but drag link will still move in a an arc... I wonder if there is a way to construct the drag link in such a way that the arc it moves in is completely negated? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_grieve Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 I wonder if there is a way to construct the drag link in such a way that the arc it moves in is completely negated? You could maybe stick on a Series steering box or bell crank linkage in line with the one link pivot with the drag link operating an idler (steering relay) mounted on the axle to operate the track rods. By having extra ball joints and links it would be a more realistic driving experience for something with a Land Rover badge. You could add more bell cranks and ball joints to get round things like sumps and front prop shafts as required. How much of a problem is bump steer any way? It ought to be a huge problem on leaf sprung Land Rovers but isn't. My leaf front end has more travel than my 90 and it doesn't show up at all, even landing jumps to cite but one example. I think it's a bigger problem with short or badly executed panhard rods throwing the axle to the side relative to the vehicle rather than the amount the drag link has to move with the axle cycling up and down vertically with other forms of lateral location. I also think having a longer pitman arm would help if there was a little bit of bump steer. I did wonder if this was why Santana made all their steering links longer. The gyro effect of heavy off road wheels must also help to resist bump steer too? Came across this on my travels, some crazy thinking going on, scroll down to the line drawings, seems pretty original to me... http://g503.com/foru...p?f=99&t=147046 : and he claims that the offset One Links work a treat in handling and to cancel torque roll That Mut is amazing, I've got those line drawings in my hard drive pretty much from when he first posted them. When I mentioned in my stage one thread about a transverse leaf spring that was exactly what I had in mind. I'm kind of off it now as I think a Panhard with a mechanically assisted steering is the way forward for simplicity and durability and when you have that much you might as well have coils or air or whatever. Great minds think alike, his solution to torque roll was really quite inspired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Do you have any comments about the execution of the one link, Bill? It is truly bolt on, but I am sure you gain a little axle tube clearance by just weding it all to the tube, but for a kit it looked 'ok' to me, without seeing it in the flesh. It's just a personal preference thing, but I'm not keen on hard welding the One Links to the axle tubes. It just seems too final and non adjustable to me as someone who occasionally likes to try different setups on the same truck without having to cut things up too much each time. The One link wishbone I am working on, only bolts to the radius arm brackets behind the axle tube, not the forward ones. To prevent the axle from rolling around the single bushing on each side of the axle, I welded a bar across the wishbone so that I can capture the flat bottom of the diff pinion housing, where the steering damper bracket on some models attach to. By shimming at that mounting pad I can adjust the castor angle, and axle tube clearance is not affected by the radius arm going under it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Bill, that is genius, castor angle was one thing I was concerned about fixing, but that offers a very neat solution to leaving it adjustable. Being a Series in the loosest sense if the word I assume your track rod is still at the front? On a coiler I guess the packaging would become a little more difficult with the bar at the back... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Bill, that is genius, castor angle was one thing I was concerned about fixing, but that offers a very neat solution to leaving it adjustable. Being a Series in the loosest sense if the word I assume your track rod is still at the front? On a coiler I guess the packaging would become a little more difficult with the bar at the back... Yes Bowie, I fitted Series swivel housings onto the RangeRover front axle housing so that I could retain the high trackrod at the front, and also the larger swivel balls once reinforced are better able to cope with the added leverage of portals. Capturing the pinion housing with the One Link wishbone would still be do able with the track rod behind the axle I should think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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