Question regarding diff set up and Puma axle retrofit

[jackbw28]

Hello everybody,

I'm replacing my front differential, journal and pinion bearings on an '89 110. The reason being existing play in pinion bearings and wanting to upgrade to an LSD diff as part of my partial vehicle rebuild.

I'm trying to ascertain if I should do the job myself or pay somebody else to do it. I would prefer to save some money and learn something fitting it myself - if I can assure myself it's done correctly and won't fail later. The vehicle is to be used for a trans-Africa expedition hopefully starting mid feb next year so failure would be even more expensive and time consuming to rectify if it fails en-route.

I've removed the final drive unit from the axle and had a good read of the workshop manual and some other threads on the subject and my questions are:

- How hard is it to get the new bearings onto the shafts? The side/journal bearings and the pinion bearings. The manual states use a press or drift. But I've never 'drifted' bearings onto a shaft before - will that not damage them? I have no problem drifting out, and new ones in, the bearing races for the pinion bearings - just concerned about doing the same for the actual bearings themselves. I do not have a press.

- I'm bit confused about pinion gear depth and setting this. I understand the use of shims for setting the preload and using a dial type torque wrench (something to buy) to check the preload. It's setting the depth, or not, that is not clear to me.

- I think I understand setting the backlash by altering the preload on the side bearings equally. Ie reduce load on one side, then take up that reduction on the other. This having the effect of slightly moving the Crown gear towards/away from the pinion gear in an effort to obtain correct backlash whilst also maintaining side bearing preload. I also understand how to check the backlash with a dial gauge indicator (something else to buy). However I am a bit confused when you take into account the depth of the pinion gear as-well - as this would also change the backlash, so how do you set both simultaneously?

- Finally, regarding side bearing pre-load, is this checked by using a dial type torque wrench on the drive flange in much the same you would with the pinion bearings? Obviously with a different torque value.

Also I have read in other posts about people replacing both sets of bearings and not doing any of the above, but simply using the initial settings & shims and not evening checking backlash or preload on reassembly. If the crown and pinion gears are being retained is this really feasible, considering the diff centre is being changed whereas in the example above the same diff centre was re-used.

2nd question. Sorry if this should be asked in a separate post, I am unsure.

My '89 110 has a drum brake Salisbury rear axle. After much thought I plan to fit a good 2nd hand (but not very old - insurance write off) 110 puma axle in its place. By doing so I upgrade to disc brakes (and callipers discs etc all in good condition due to age). I also increase my ground clearance and have an axle that is more 'user friendly' than the Salisbury. I also intend to replace most of the drive internals of this axle with a new locking diff, HD shafts and drive flanges. The 'puma' style axle also has a lot more locking diff options than a Salisbury and is correctly rated for use on a 110.
I understand many people prefer the Salisbury due to its 'sheer' strength and I understand this - I also know its possible to fit a disc-braked Salisbury or even fit discs to my drum fitted Salisbury. However, I have had one Salisbury axle fail on me (probably caused by bad pinion bearings - so not really the axle at fault) but I still prefer going for the puma style axle.

So my question is regarding the fitment of this axle to my vehicle.

- I know my old prop will be too short. I see no reason why a late Td5 prop would not fit as that used the same set up I am aiming for. Same axle and same transfer box mounted in the same position. Does anybody see a problem with this plan?

- I understand spring seats need to be swapped over. No problem here I assume?

- I have noticed that the trailing arm and A-frame bushes are different part numbers for this axle as opposed to a Salisbury rear axle. So does anybody know if this axle will fit my trailing arms and will my A-frame ball joint fit this axle?

- If the answer to the above is no, I can use puma trailing arms and A-frame. In this case are the chassis mounts the same?

- Is there anything I need to do to the brakes to have them work correctly, other than just connecting them up? I intend to just ignore the ABS components. My vehicle has what I think is a brake 'balancing' unit mounted on the rear brake line. Should I remove this? Are the rear brakes on a puma fed by one line, and split on the axle or two separate lines? If its two lines can can I simply join them to the one line I have via a t-piece?

Any other thoughts or ideas on the issue would be greatly appreciated.

Many Thanks.

[muddy]

A part response,

I think your transfer box is sat further back as you will have LT77 not R380 gearbox so a TD5/puma prop may be too short, on a late td5 and puma chassis the a frame chassis brackets are welded to the chassis not bolt on like a pre td5 era. This probably explains the differences in bush part no.s

How has the sixty plate been written off? We've had a nice looking sixty plate in the body shop this week with a bent axle. You could soon cause yourself many issues.

Will.

[western]

on a late td5 and puma chassis the a frame chassis brackets are welded to the chassis This probably explains the differences in bush part no.s

my new chassis has this A frame bracket arrangement, the new type brackets have a steel tube which fits inside the metalastik bush tubes & M16 bolts can be used.

bolt on bracket type use NTC1773 Bush, item 3 in http://lrcat.com/#31/4/52634

welded to chassis bracket type use either NTC1773 & bolts BH612321 or ANR4164 [M16] with M16 x 100mm long bolts RYG501550 item 3 & 6 in http://lrcat.com/#30/4/44807

my 1989 110's A frame arms fitted the chassis with no problems.

[jackbw28]

Hi Will,

Thanks for your reply. I know the gearbox itself is different and that post 200tdi engines sit a lot further forward. But I think the difference is made in the bell housing length, not the location of the gearbox which I hope has remained the same. I fitted an R380 box and used a shorter than usual bell housing and input shaft that kept the engine (and G-box) located in the original position. But of-course it could be a combination of both on Td5 vehicles which could have a different Gbox position - I don't know too much post 300tdi!

Ah interesting about the later A-frame, I shall do some research into that.

Regarding the puma axle, it's not necessarily off a 60plate. But I have come across a couple of newish puma axles (3 years old max) that have come from written off puma's. How, I have no idea! regarding the bent axle... hmmm, I've heard similar as-well but just don't think it's all that common. The axle has been in use for a while now and although the odd story of a bent/snapped one crops up I still think it's benefits outweigh the Sals... But indeed it may indeed catch me out!

[jackbw28]

Hi Western,

Thanks for that - didn't see your post till I already replied!

So are you now using your old A-frame with your new chassis and the later type mounts? If so i assume going the other way would also work... Old brackets new A-frame?

Thanks again.

[dailysleaze]

I've done this mod to a 300Tdi. It fitted with 300Tdi lower link bars, the Td5 A frame and Td5 prop - all bolts up happily. The axle will probably have separate left + right brake lines for ABS, etc. I'm not sure about differences between 300Tdis and '89 vehicles.

The Td5 prop is between 114 and 120cm long. The 300Tdi prop is between 106 and 110cm. You should measure your handbrake drum to diff flange to ensure there will be a prop that will fit. I'm fairly sure that my 200Tdi had the transfer box in a slightly different place.

[muddy]

I'm sure the transfer box location was changed with the introduction of the R380. I have a Salisbury on my 300 90 using a 200 90 rear prop, my mate with a 200 90 and Salisbury uses a 300 front prop.

Will

[jackbw28]

Thanks for the info dailysleaze,

Thats good news. I'm pretty sure my lower link bars are the same as 300tdi so see no problem - thanks for the probable confirmation this will work (for the mounting at-least).
Out of interest why did you not you a 300tdi A-frame? is the mounting to the axle casing different?

Regarding the prop, tomorrow I'll measure up current distance and hopefully it will fall within your quoted length for a 300tdi prop. Then once I've fitted the axle I'll measure again to double confirm correct td5 prop fitment. I think it will match up though with you information, thanks again - very helpful.

Another question regarding the brakes. I have a two lines from the master cyl, one to the rear and one to the front, both via an imbalance sensor of sorts. I think all this does is activate the dash warning light if there is a pressure imbalance thus, problem. I think was deleted on later vehicles and a different source used for the light, but don't think it affects operation or anything. These two lines split via a simple t-piece to left and right at both front and back. I'm not sure what the 300tdi has, but wouldn't have thought it had two lines to the rear? How did you connect your brakes?
The only 'odd' thing I have is an in-line unit on the rear line. Not 100% sure what it does, but think it is something to do with front/rear brake bias. In any-case it can very simply be bypassed. However if anybody knows better as to what it does I'd love to know!

thanks

[jackbw28]

Hi Will, hmm. Sounds like you may be right! Hope not though And thanks for your input.

Well if I can't get a LR prop to fit, I may have to have a custom one made.... Might get a few rough quotes before proceeding though. I'll google prop specialists but if anybody knows or can recommend a company that would be helpful.

[Bowie69]

Propshaft Clinic, very reasonable and a good job

I expect you will be able to get one to fit though, have some faith in the LR gods!

[western]

Hi Western,

Thanks for that - didn't see your post till I already replied!

So are you now using your old A-frame with your new chassis and the later type mounts? If so i assume going the other way would also work... Old brackets new A-frame?

Thanks again.

yes my original 1989 A frame on the new galvanised marsland chassis which is a 'puma' type [these are actually made by GKN for LR, marsland buy them in & sort the various engine/fuel tank mounts to order]

can't see why the latr A frame arms wouldn't work on a older chassis.

[muddy]

You could always shorten a 127 prop or I would be interested to see how an lse prop matched up.

[jackbw28]

Well all good news and lots of information, thanks very much everybody Looks like the idea will work without too much fuss, now I need to snap up an axle, get it fitted and finalise the prop a bit later.

However in the mean time I'm rebuilding my front axle - any hints tips on setting up the diff?

And, I know I'm pushing it , but another question:

I disassembled my wheel stations today (removed them as a complete unit yesterday to drop the final drive/diff assembly) and, as expected really, found almost everything worn and/or damaged. I'm pricing up and finding all the part numbers now for replacement parts now and just noticed that later type swivels have two taper roller bearings top and bottom. Mine only have one bearing at the bottom and a bush (very very worn!) at the top. I need to replace the swivel balls as they are badly pitted and I'lll replace the pins as-well. So, can I use the later style balls with later pins and two taper roller bearings AND retain my existing housing and stub axle?

I'll let you know how the rear axle and prop shaft work out, incase anybody's interested, when I get there. Hopefully won't be too long, just need to finish the front first.

[Retroanaconda]

I think the swivel housings are different as well as the swivel balls themselves. So not interchangeable between types. You can use older stubs/CVs etc. on a later housing/swivel though, the stub axle bolt PCD is the same.

Personally I would just stick with what you've got, the older setup with bearing bottom and railko bush top, as it saves changing bits and I'm not sure if there are any massive advantages of the later setup really.

Can't help with the diff I'm afraid, I leave stuff like that to people who know what they're doing!

[jackbw28]

Thanks Retroanaconda,

It does make sense just to stay standard. It just seems to me that that the twin bearing set up would be better - though that isn't based on anything concrete.

In any case I quite like the older swivel housings with drain plugs, so don't want to replace them anyways so I'll stick with standard then.
But still good to know I could you my old hubs with the later housing if I want to at some point.

Yep the diff is a sticking point... Might have to give it to somebody, it would save me a lot of time and give me peace of mind! Although its something i'd like to know how to do and with two diffs needing replacing it's quite expensive to have it done!

[western]

Have a chat with http://www.crowndiffs.co.uk/, bought a recondited diff for my front axle a while ago, it's been fine.

[deep]

I've been thinking about this topic a bit today.

If you are planning a trans-Africa expedition with this vehicle your really, really should retain your standard rear diff. I recall talking to a bloke in the middle of Australia, a few years ago, who was responsible for a fleet of fire vehicles. He had recently bought Defenders which no longer had Salisburys and was having a lot of trouble with them. The issues I remember were plastic end caps popping off and half-shafts twisting. I have had a few Land Rovers with Salisburys (including a 1990 110, close to what you have) and such issues just didn't happen. You can quickly find yourself regretting bad decisions when the roads are rough, you're miles from anywhere, you can't speak the language and your car has major problems. I would put reliability above all else in such an expedition. That's not to say your Puma diff will break, just that you are going to a lot of trouble, possibly having to use non-standard parts and gaining nothing at all in terms of reliability.

There, someone had to say it, sorry. Not like me to be an old f**t but I have been alone on rough roads, days away from help, and know what matters!

Don

[jackbw28]

Thanks Ralph, they look like a good outfit, I'll give 'em a ring in the morning and get a quote.

[jackbw28]

Hi Don,

No need for sorry, I do understand your point. And i've been thinking about this all year whilst re-building the rest of the car. The main point in doing the rebuild is to have a vehicle that is mechanically as sound as can be for, primarily, reliability's sake. I know a bit about Africa being from there and after this trip I'm staying there - essentially I'm moving back home after 9yrs in the UK and decided to have a little 'holiday' before starting a new job out there. I intend to keep the car once I'm there so I'm also using the time whilst I'm here with parts and technical help readily available (and much much cheaper - note import duties, shipping etc) to 'do her up' how I want her to be.

Obviously I really don't want the hassle of a breakdown - all this work is to minimise the chance of that - and I know the consequences! But I also know roughly what to expect, having had plenty of experience driving Africa in the past and maintaing a vehicle there. So I understand it may seem odd in ditching the sailsbury axle, but this is my thinking:-

I've only ever had salisbury axles on my current and previous Land Rovers - and they are good, have been (mostly) reliable. However I would like to improve the 'off road' ability of the car a bit - with the addition of a full locker in the rear axle and LSD in the front. I know this isn't necessary for an overland expedition - but part of me always wants do something a bit more challenging/stupid than is absolutely needed, this has left me wanting an axle locker a fair few times. Additionally, even if not used on the trip down, it will certainly be used on weekend excursions once back.

I think replacing my 10-spline 2-pin diff with a much stronger Ashcroft lsd (standard ring & pinion, CV, etc) in the front will give me better handling on 'relatively' fast gravel roads, help off-road and whilst not improve the strength of the whole axle, wont reduce reliability either.

Regarding the rear - I'm not planning on keeping the standard internals of the puma axle I obtain (well I could bring em as spares I s'pose!). It will receive a stronger locking diff, HD shafts, HD ring & pinion gear and HD drive flanges. The objective here is to improve the total strength of the axle and improve off-road ability. The reason I don't install a locker in the sals axle is the reduced aftermarket locker options and the fact that the Salisbury is much harder to service if something does go wrong with it. I had a failed sals axle in the UK approx 2 years ago and the most sensible/cheapest thing to do was just replace the whole thing as dropping the diff is much more of a hassle than on a rover-type axle.
Also I want to upgrade to discs on the rear - with buying a relatively new puma axle I get newish disc brakes. I know i could get a 300tdi 110 sals axle with discs, but by now they are sure to need work/replacing, due to age, and that adds more cost since the 2nd hand price of buying either axle is pretty much the same at the moment! Also I could retrofit discs onto my current axle but its just cheaper and simpler to have it all done with relatively new genuine parts 'out of the box'.

The only problem to reliability I then see, is the axle casing itself bending or similar. This is a risk I'm willing to take, as I just don't think it happens all that often despite hearing the odd story. Perhaps if I saw it first hand it might change my mind! By now I know of a few non-sals 110 running in Africa with no major rear axle issues. And of-course I've heard a few complaints as-well - much the same as the bloke you mentioned in Aus.

At the end of the day, I want a full locker and disc brakes on the rear. For the trip and just to have! The simplest and, almost, cheapest way to do this is to fit a puma axle - in doing the axle mods, despite all the non-standard parts (but fully interchangeable with standard parts) I think the axle will be pretty strong and very reliable considering it will effectively be new. And finally if it were to fail, Africa isn't as remote as it used to be or as I sometimes wish it to be! With the Chinese funding new roads, a strong economy, growing middle class etc getting stuff moved about is not too bad anymore! In-fact i'd like to do central Aus at some point as I reckon it will be a lot more remote than a lot of Africa!!

Thanks for your input in the discussion and I hope you can 'sort of' see my point!
Jack

[deep]

Thanks for the comprehensive answer Jack. I was born in Africa at a time when Land Rovers reigned and everything broke axles! I fully understand the desire for lockers etc. I'd put one in my own Stage One V8 if the price was more reasonable but they definitely are available. I hope you manage to get everything sorted to your satisfaction.

When I drove across Australia (a sort of 31,000km figure eight trip, crossing the Centre East-West, then later North-South) it was in a then 22 year old Range Rover (sans Salisbury!). When I got the car, I was staying with the former maintenance head of a major airline and he was much fussier than me, hence I had very little trouble with my car later. Things made out of rubber seemed to be the weaknesses - shock rubbers and tyres, obviously, as well as a clutch seal and carb diaphragms. I also blew up a muffler in the Blue Mountains by inadvertently cruising down a hill with the ignition off... These things are inevitable, as you know. Really, though, working to reduce the impact of luck before you go is wise. Good luck.

[dailysleaze]

Thats good news. I'm pretty sure my lower link bars are the same as 300tdi so see no problem - thanks for the probable confirmation this will work (for the mounting at-least).

Out of interest why did you not you a 300tdi A-frame? is the mounting to the axle casing different?

The axle came with an A frame. I couldn't get the ball joint out of the Salisbury, so I just removed the two A frame bolts and replaced it all in one go.

[jackbw28]

Thanks Don,

Indeed, its a sad sight seeing so many land cruisers cluttering up the roads these days! Even most of my friends have now turned over to the 'dark side'... Reliability issues aside I think Land Rover would have maintained a larger market share in Africa and Aus if they fitted a larger engine to the defender, the 2.5litre turbo diesels land rover fit just don't compare to the 3litre + V6 diesels (and bigger on the premium models) Toyota fit... Anyways I s'pose this sort of chat is for a different place - not too sure about forum rules/etiqete!

Oh wow - that sounds like a great trip - 31,000kms - shows the sheer size of place! as an estimate I'm expecting about the same but driving across Europe and down eastern side of the African continent! And I second you on rubber being a problem - In addition to what you say I find standard bushes don't last very long with constant gravel road/track driving. Wasn't polybush started by a bloke in Africa fed up of changing bushes so frequently.

Thanks for the gd luck.

[jackbw28]

The axle came with an A frame. I couldn't get the ball joint out of the Salisbury, so I just removed the two A frame bolts and replaced it all in one go.

Oh I see, so the standard frame could still fit. Anyways after looking at a few axles online, it looks as if getting one with the frame and trailing arms isn't a problem so I'll just see how it goes when I get one.

Thanks again for the info

[jackbw28]

Hello all again,

Just to update - I've finished the front axle rebuild and fitted a puma rear axle - all has gone well so far. For information Puma axle was a straight swap regarding A-frame and trailing arms.

As for the propshaft, I measured 105.4cm with the sals still fitted, unladen, level ground etc. Yet to measure with the new axle as springs not yet fitted...

However, quick question. How exactly can I confirm the axle I just fitted is indeed a puma 110 axle. It looks pretty new so i don't doubt it's age, but is there anything to prove its off a 110 and not a 90? Obviously it was sold as a 110 axle, I just want to double check. I have the axle number but don't know what prefix was used for the 110 - does anybody know this?

Also is there a way I can check with LR for a manufacture date or just any more info regarding the axle - just to put my mind to rest.

Thanks again

[western]

good to read the 'puma' axle fitted without any big problems, easiest way to find out if it's a 110 rear is visit main dealer with the axle serial number, I can't find any serial number info in the parts info for 2007 on vehicles.