smallfry Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 I know this probably been done to death, but the search facility doesnt seem to be working well for me. As it says in the title, WHY would you choose one over the other ? Strength ? Reliability ? Noise ? Etc. pros and cons ? I know the BW unit does not offer easy any fairly inexpensive ratio changes, but apart from that. Opinions please ..................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Idris Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Borgy is great for trials as it is always locked 4x4 but allows slip in the front axel so you can turn tighter between the sticks. (see Ferguson four wheel drive). Lt230 is plentiful and has many options and parts, like the addition of a quaif centre diff, which gives you Borgy-esk performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 The Yanks seem to prefer the LT230, swapping it into late RRCs, perhaps because it's perceived as stronger or maybe because it's cheaper to repair. I have a Borg Warner equipped RRC, and it does wear the tyres out faster, but it's quieter and smoother and copes brilliantly on icy and snowy roads, better than the LT230 in my wife's 90. I like the BW more, and if I was to retrofit a newer transmission into my 109, I'd use one. In fact, what I'd like even more is tohave the selectable 2/4wd of the Series transmission with a viscous coupling to the front end, so I can have the ridiculously long tyre life the 2wd gives me buy have the same carefree locked 4wd as my RRC for mixed slippery/tractive conditions. I'd be interesting to see if there's a way of fitting a Freelander VC to the 109 transmission... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 The Americans reckon the LT230 is stronger and more dependable. Advance Adaptors, the US manufacturer of 'Atlas'aftermarket transfercases, claim that a locked LT230 is capable of handling up to 1000 horsepower. The 230 doesn't suffer chain wear and stretch, and has a positive difflock instead of depending on viscous friction. This translates into what I will call "get you home ability" when some of the other Landrover weaknesses rear their ugly heads. To illustrate, here is an example. A customer of ours around 11 years ago was travelling through the high country on rough, wet and steep bush tracks in his borg Warner equipped RangeRover, in company with a friend driving a GQ Nissan Patrol. While the Range Rover was mechanically intact, it was handling the conditions more competently than the Patrol, so the viscous coupling was certainly providing drive to both front and rear differentials. However it wasn't too long before the Rangey snapped one of the tiny inner front halfshafts at the Cv joint, at which point the viscous coupling didn't have the capacity to direct the drive to the rear differential, so no wheel drive. We are talking distance and isolation from civilization that is not possible to find in the UK, and as the conditions were too severe for the vehicle to be towed, it had to be repaired on the spot after removing the complete swivel assembly, driving it to the nearest town, where a courier could pick it up and transport it 250KM to my workshop and back again after I repaired it to be refitted by another mechanic hired to do the job. Our customer estimated the all up cost, including loss of wages for the week plus bush hotel accommodation etc etc to be around $2000. If he had an LT230 he could have locked the centre diff, fitted his mud/snow chains to the rear wheels and driven out, even if the Patrol may have needed to assist on some of the steeper sections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Erm, you can drive a BW box with only the rear prop attached and it drives absolutely fine. I suggest there was a further issue with the box.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Erm, you can drive a BW box with only the rear prop attached and it drives absolutely fine. I suggest there was a further issue with the box.... There may have been further issues Bowie, but if there was it never showed up before or after the halfshaft broke and was replaced. And those further issues, if they existed, were in the viscous coupling, which the LT230 doesn't have. Experience with viscous couplings is that some fail locked and some fail open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 I haven't had mine apart yet, but doesn't the BW behave more like a Series unit, but with a viscous unit instead of a selectable dog clutch? I thought the BW had a fixed connection to the rear axle and the front drive went through the VC allowing the slip needed but trying to match the rear, unlike the LT230 being a selectable open or closed diff with no direct drive to either prop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 I haven't had mine apart yet, but doesn't the BW behave more like a Series unit, but with a viscous unit instead of a selectable dog clutch? I thought the BW had a fixed connection to the rear axle and the front drive went through the VC allowing the slip needed but trying to match the rear, unlike the LT230 being a selectable open or closed diff with no direct drive to either prop. I don't know, you may or may not be correct. It would make more sense to me to design the viscous coupling like you described, although it wouldn't give true differential action for the claimed superior control for the borg Warner unit on slippery roads. The customer in my post above, said that after the front axle broke, there was no drive to the rear axle either, and once the new front axle was installed, everything was back to normal. From his description of the terrain, and his saying that the Rangey was performing better than the Patrol before the half shaft snapped, I would think it unlikely that the Rangey was doing it all in front wheel drive only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Ian Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Just for info, the BW box is a viscous controlled center diff, ie the drive is split same as a 230 but the 230diff lock is replaced with the viscous coupling to control the differential action. Yes the BW can be used in rear wheel drive only but kit will fry the visc coupling ending up breaking a C V or worse when you replace the front prop. For reliability use the 230 every time, for trials with 4 WD a BW is fun but will fry the coupling if used agressively. Hope this helps. Ian Ashcroft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roverdrive Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 I campaigned a 1989 RRC for a few years with the BW box with no issues. I did fit a bash plate as I believe the casing to be very thin and unable to take knocks. Had to drive home in FWD once due to a smashed rear diff. All in all no problems with the box. Was also useful towing a heavy trailer when pulling out of side roads, as there was no tendency for the lightly loaded front wheel to spin. I believe the fuel consumption might be worse with the BW box, but I don't have any facts to back this up. Perhaps just my heavy right foot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Thanks, Ian - clears things up pretty sharply! Roverdrive, I suspect that the fuel consumption may be worse than for a similarly geared LT230 - the chain effectively has a lot of bearing surfaces, but the main cause is probably the transmission wind up that happens when cornering, which is what wears the tyres faster; that energy has to come form somewhere - the VC allows enough slip to prevent damage, but the forces are still pretty high... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Just for info, the BW box is a viscous controlled center diff, ie the drive is split same as a 230 but the 230diff lock is replaced with the viscous coupling to control the differential action. Yes the BW can be used in rear wheel drive only but kit will fry the visc coupling ending up breaking a C V or worse when you replace the front prop. For reliability use the 230 every time, for trials with 4 WD a BW is fun but will fry the coupling if used agressively. Hope this helps. Ian Ashcroft If the viscous unit is in fact a differential that uses viscous fluid and perforated discs in a similar way to a conventional LSD uses clutch packs, then IMO this would explain why my customer lost all drive once his front half shaft let go. As I vaguely recall, viscous units either fail locked solid, or open like a conventional differential, therefore if one loses its effectiveness over time and fails open, it will become just like the centre diff of an LT230 minus the ability to manually lock it. Would anyone really want to take a Borg Warner equipped 4wd into conditions where reliability is paramount ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 There is no diff in it, is a viscous coupling, that locks up when there is speed difference between front and rear, but there is always some linkage between the front and rear axles. Test for it is to jack up a front wheel and stand on the wheel brace, you should drop very slowly to the ground. Chains are a VERY efficient method of energy transfer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallfry Posted March 17, 2014 Author Share Posted March 17, 2014 Thanks for the info guys.............all very interesting stuff, but I am still no further forward with my choice I like the idea of the BW unit because although I have never actually driven a vehicle with one installed, I understand that they are supposed to be smoother and quieter, which hopefully will suit my engine conversion better. I know the viscous unit can be temperamental and the chain can wear, but I sort of like the idea of the fully automatic action. The other thing I like about it though, is that is does not seem to suffer from input gear spline problems or wear out the main gearbox mainshaft splines either. The other question I have about them is.............Does long periods of idleness affect the VC at all, or must it be excercised regularly ? All this talk of unreliability is a concern though, what with that and the sprag problems with ZF autoboxes is making me think I ought to go manual....................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Any talk over reliability is subjective, Tomcat Motorsport use the Borg Warner box in their racers (or at least used to, not sure what they are making any more!) so they can't be all that bad. They are MUCH quieter in my experience, even 100K old BW was quieter than a rebuilt LT230 -nothing more than a bit of whine, but it was noisier. They don't generally get affected by sitting still, no more than any other box. ZF Autos are also pretty reliable, if you want to compare, just look at how many LT77s get rebuilt! You haven't said what usage you intend, might be an idea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallfry Posted March 18, 2014 Author Share Posted March 18, 2014 Sorry, thought I HAD mentioned usage, but looking again I omitted that bit.................. Will be mainly road going with only a bit of bumping up kerbs a bit of green lane stuff, but nothing serious. But then, who knows ? I will be running it behind a 1UZFE Lexus in a 90. At least thats the plan, but more on that later. I will start a thread in the readers wives section when I get round to it ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Murphy Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Readers wives section I like that, an apt description Mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 My BW has don 200,000 miles and is still going strong on its original parts, with the VC unit in perfect working order. Behind a V8 they can eventually have worn and stretched chains, but behind a Tdi they seem to last forever. I'll be stripping it and the R380 its mated to at some point later this year (I hope) as the R380 has the usual gnashing on second and there is a little backlash, but everything works as is should except that synchro ring (and even that works if you don't rush the change up), which is pretty good for a unit with that mileage and no previous repairs. Like I said, it drives much better on the slippery winter roads than either my 109 or my wife's Tdci Defender, but at the cost of faster tyre wear (40,000 miles for a set of BFG ATs, half what the same tyres do on the 109 which spends most of its time in 2wd) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Ian Posted March 18, 2014 Share Posted March 18, 2014 Hi just to clarify, there is a center differential in the BW, just like a 230' but it is coupled to a VC unit to limit its differentiation, two most common problems are, spline wear (strip) on the output shaft (center spline) and the outer spline in the VC unit itself. These usually strip after the VC unit goes solid and result in total loss of drive, chain stretch although disconcerting when power applied ( jumps the teeth like a shot gun going off ) does not generally fail and loose drive. Ian Ashcroft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heath robinson Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 I've had a BW behind an auto box and a 4.2 (all came out of an LSE) for a fair while. When I pulled it out of the rangie, there was an issue with the BW, so I swapped it for an Ashcroft recon unit, and I have to say that in combination with the auto box, it was the most competent drive train I've ever driven off-road. I could tow things out of mud on my 255/85 MT tyres that others bogged down trying to tow on much more serious tyres. I have literally never got stuck when working (as opposed to playing, trying to find the limits). I've driven it for a fair few miles in both front- and rear-wheel-drive-only, once towing an overladen trailer for about 30 miles (don't ask), and it performed perfectly. I really like the way that it sorts everything out for you, there's no fannying about selecting options for the terrain ahead, you can just charge straight off the motorway into the sticky stuff, and it copes perfectly. I won't hesitate to fit it in the truck's rebuild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwakers Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 has the p38 got a borg warner? if so, (and im pretty sure it does) then im quite impressed with mine. i drove it through a axle deep mud bog last week on road tyres, (where a series 3 on mud's got stuck in about 20 feet) and it drove through fine, no drama. so yes. i'd go borg warner. infinitly better than my disco's lt230. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 The P38 does have a BW unit. It's not quite the same as the RRC's, but it's very similar and operates identically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Murphy Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 How would the BW box compare to a 230 with one of Mr Ashcrofts limited slip diffs in it for winter driving ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Similar, but with more noise and backlash, I'd imagine - that's the benefit of chain drive. But the 230 may be able to be set up with all the usual ratios, while the BW is 1.22 only (on the RRC, anyway, I'm not sure what the P38 ratio is). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 With most Chain drive transfercases, the chain only has to drive the front wheels, and on vehicles with selective 4wd at least, the chains generally last the life of the vehicle. On the BW/Rover unit the chain powers both fr/rear axles, so is subjected to greater strain and higher wear rates. Heat generation of chain drives in hotter climes can also be a concern. I used to know a bloke who regularly and quite successfully campaigned a 4spd LT95 110 in the Australian Safari, and he claimed that the Mitsubishi factory team had a Canter 3 ton 4x4 Support truck loaded with Gearboxes and transfercases that were changed nightly due to the Chain drives overheating under racing conditions.I don't think the Borg Warner units are any better equipped to shed excess heat than the Mitsubishi units, and may be worse in low range due to the BW's having planetary reduction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.