skirky dave Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 This is nothing more than idle curiosity. When my 2.5 N/A Diesel started running rough, before it was finally cured, i read an article, following someones idea, that, there might be water in the diesel filter, which i then checked. Thankfully, there was nothing present. My questions are these,.... why/ how does this happen and does it happen with petrol........ and also,...If this can happen in the fuel tank /filter, then what about the petrol stations all over the country. Surely this could be a bit dodgy with the amount of fuel we all buy annually, How much water is in the petrol station tanks that we are buying as diesel. Also.. is their a way of removing it from your fuel tanks. As i said,..this is just an idle thought.....pondering, as one does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 Diesel gets into tanks by condensation and leaks. Contamination from one tank to another can also be an issue. Below a small amount, it has little effect, but significant amounts cause corrosion and fungal growth. LR fitted sedimenter bowls between the tank and filter on most diesel models to counter the effects of poor quality fuel and storage, especially in third world nations, where repairs to leaking tanks may never happen. Petrol vehicles tend to have transparent fuel filters which will show water contamination, especially 4-cylinder 2.25 and 2.5 engines from Series and 90/110 - they have small glass sedimenter bowls on the lift pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skirky dave Posted November 22, 2017 Author Share Posted November 22, 2017 Nice to hear from you again Nick, hope your ok. Hmm, well you learn something every day!. Mine is just a Delphi lift pump, no glass bowl,. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 23 minutes ago, skirky dave said: Nice to hear from you again Nick, hope your ok. Hmm, well you learn something every day!. Mine is just a Delphi lift pump, no glass bowl,. If you do not have a sedimenter, it is a good idea to add one. It does not take much dirt to cause the non return valve in the lift pump from getting stuck open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skirky dave Posted November 22, 2017 Author Share Posted November 22, 2017 Mmm, i can see what you mean and i suppose that if i were living in a country with poor fuel , then it may well make sense. Never seen these on uk Mercs, BMW, or any other uk car to be honest. I guess our regulations must be more stringent....which is why we pay more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkie Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 17 hours ago, skirky dave said: why/ how does this happen and does it happen with petrol.. Petrol has a much higher vapour pressure than diesel. The greater the vapour pressure of any liquid, the more air will be displaced by that vapour; so as diesel has a much lower vapour pressure than petrol, diesel tanks will have a greater volume of the dead space in the tank filled with air rather than fuel vapour and will get wetter as water in the air condenses. As well as fitting a sedimenter as suggested above it is also a good idea with a diesel (particularly if used infrequently) to keep the tank full so there is less [wet]air present in the tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skirky dave Posted November 22, 2017 Author Share Posted November 22, 2017 Wow..i'm afraid chemistry was never my strong point. This could be an interesting read. Does this mean ...as in fumes. It 's a little confusing. Same as the so called ( Boiling point of brake fluid ), I once tried DOT 5 in my motor and it cost me dearly as it rotted the seals, an expensive and time consuming mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkie Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 Yes exactly, fumes. Petrol has a much lower boiling point than diesel so has a greater vapour pressure. Hence you can see the fumes from petrol and it will easily burst into flames if you get a source of ignition near it - where as with diesel you can see any fumes and you have a job to set fire to it with a lit match. If a tank is half full with fuel, the other half of the tank is partly air (with water vapour in it) and partly fuel vapour (fumes). A greater portion of this air/fumes mixture will be fumes in the case of petrol. The reverse is true for diesel hence water condensing from the air in the tank can be a problem if most of the tank is filled with wet air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skirky dave Posted November 22, 2017 Author Share Posted November 22, 2017 Very very interesting that. I only wish i could afford to keep the tank full !!. Also this mention of, ( Fungal Growth ) as described by Nick. I have have treated fungal like slime in the bottom of windscreen washer bottles causing the washers to fail because of the blockage. I've always treated that with boiling hot water from the kettle and adding bleach, then rinse, job done. but never fungal problems in Diesel tanks. Fungal problems in water is usually associated with poorly maintained air conditioning units, with the added medical complications of legionnaire's disease. So all in all, this is very interesting to learn that diesel tanks can produce a fungal growth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 Which is why my diesel gets an occasional shot of jayes fluid. Stops the diesel bug. An alternative is Wynn's biocide for diesel. G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 Plenty of modern diesels have water-traps, my last transit had one on the bottom of the fuel filter. I suspect most modern stuff they've worked out how to design things to avoid moisture as far as possible - likely that fully-sealed plastic tanks have something to do with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkie Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 Even a modern plastic tank must still have a requirement to draw in air to replace the volume of fuel as the level falls in the tank? I've had diesel cars before (in recent years, 10 plate and onwards) that have a light come on the dash if it senses water in the fuel, fairly sure my car now (a 65 plate) has this and it will make the service light come on early. I think it is just an electrode in the fuel filter to let you the filter needs changing. I always try to keep my tank topped up when possible to keep air out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanuki Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 TD5 Land-Rovers have a 'water in fuel' sensor built into the bottom of the fuel-filter cartridge and a little orange warning-light on the dash. Given the cost of a set of TD5 injectors [over £1000] it's not wise to ignore this light if it comes on. Condensation of water in the tank provides an ideal environment for the "Creosote fungus" to take up residence. This nasty little critter in the wild would live on things like the resin in rotting pine-tree stumps but the interface between Diesel [or aviation-fuel] and condensed water in a fuel-tank is also a perfect habitat. It produces a fluffy-slimy growth that can readily block fuel-lines/filters: also as part of its growth it causes the water-part of its environment to become acidic - leading to corrosion, particularly of aluminium parts. See http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-Bio19Tuat01-t1-body-d4.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skirky dave Posted November 24, 2017 Author Share Posted November 24, 2017 Gazzar Which is why my diesel gets an occasional shot of jayes fluid. Stops the diesel bug. .......................................................................................................................................................... Really.....The last time i saw this used was decades ago,,,,by my Mum. She used to pour it into the outside drains. Must be 40+ years ago. I have also been looking into the Wynns stuff. There are water traps available on the bay of evil, that fits on the bottom of my diesel filter, which maybe worth looking at. About £8. The fungal debate is very interesting. Does anyone else use one of these water traps on their series landy's, is one really needed for uk Diesel or could this just be me being paranoid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secondjeremy Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 You've got a water trap - its the bottom of the filter housing - that's carefully constructed so you can't assemble it without a filter. There's even a tap to let the water out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skirky dave Posted November 24, 2017 Author Share Posted November 24, 2017 secondjeremy Eh up mate. Yea i've removed that on many occasions when changing the filter, i was just thinking that, with the glass bottom, you can see any water present or maybe particles which can't be seen with the aluminium bottom housing. To be fair Jeremy, i do change the filters about 4 times a year, and the oil to keep the engine running sweet. I have also been reading on other forums , where some members, have the glass fitted to the Diesel lift pump but they have had problems with a rubber diaphragm thats fitted as part of that unit. and decided to fit the same lift pump that i myself use, (Delphi) which has no glass bowl. I was just thinking of it being a visual aid to any water or collected bits of crud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 The lift pumps with glass bowls are for petrol engines, which may be why the diaphragm failed early - they may have a different type of rubber from diesel pumps. However, it's more likely that they had cheap pattern parts of low quality, which seem to have flooded the market if not the engine. The sedimenter that LR fit on diesels looks much like the diesel fuel filter, but with a single-piece removable bowl comparable in size and shape tot he filter cartridge and lower casing combined. As Jeremy said, though, if you periodically drain the filter by using the white plastic tap, you should remove any accumulated water; you would only likely benefit from a sedimenter in the UK if you wade deeply a lot and run the risk of liquid water ingress into the tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 My first Landrover was a diesel 88 of dubious origin. When I got it I did a full service, including the sediment bowl on the chassis rail under the driver's seat. It had 2 inches of sand and muck, obviously it had never been cleaned in its life. The thing is that not all Landrovers are refilled at gleaming new forecourts, some are filled from bulk tanks that aren't kept in the best condition, with condensation, rust, dust and goodness knows what. Change your filters on the interval, keep the tank full, and buy decent diesel from a different station each time, and you should be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skirky dave Posted November 27, 2017 Author Share Posted November 27, 2017 Hi guys, been at my other halfs this weekend so only just seen the new reply's. I did come across a glass filter / inspection housing, Ebay number / item number , 322122850251 £7.oo ish but as you guys have pointed out, if i drain the tap every now and again, then, i shouldn't have any problems. The hardest part is keeping the tank filled up, especially as Xmas is knocking at the door. More expense!!!!!. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 Good to drain the tank every so often, in that case. It won't stop it rusting, but it will remove the water and gunk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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