iain maoileoin Posted July 11, 2022 Share Posted July 11, 2022 Looking for help with an LR with a PTO superwinch. Ex utility company. I engaged the winch - works fine. BUT had a help of a whine from a ?pump? behind the drivers seat bolted to the chassis. disengaged the PTO, and the whine continued. I cant find a manual that help me figure out what the 'thing' whining is - it is electric, The manual above is oh so close, but does not have the "thing" that I have on the schematic. It looks a bit like the fuel pump/filter on an old LR disco - pipes in and out, power and about the same size with what looks like a filter screwed on. I took it to my local friendly MOT shop and asked them to disconnect the electrics to the 'pump' if they could not find out what was wrong. Unfortunately the stripped out a lot of bits. Stops the whine, but stops the winch! Can anybody tell me what the unit I have is? If things help I had (now stripped out) a warning light that came on when the PTO was engaged - DONT ENGAGE REVERSE. Various photos here - http://www.csp-partnership.co.uk/landie/ All clues welcome. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted July 11, 2022 Share Posted July 11, 2022 My CSI zoom & enhance skills are a bit lacking, any chance you could roll underneath and take a less blurry picture of said device? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain maoileoin Posted July 11, 2022 Share Posted July 11, 2022 Wilco. BUT just in tonight, so a bit late to crawl underneath, I will get the camera out tomorrow morning. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miketomcat Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 (edited) Sounds like it could be an electric hydraulic pump instead of the PTO driven pump. Does it look like this: https://images.app.goo.gl/P4wiarcoTDGZuFCi6 If it does and it's whining I'd say it's in need of a rebuild but it's likely it's shot. Mike Edit :Having now realized there's some pictures, it looks like the filter assembly. Have you changed the filter? Edited July 12, 2022 by miketomcat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 With the PTO disengaged the while should stop if it's hydraulic - if it continues for any length of time I'd suspect either something electrical connected to the system (I'm not sure how the governor box thing is doing its thing) or that the PTO hasn't actually disengaged... although that's easy to check as the whining would/should be in time with engine/gearbox speed and stop when you dip the clutch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain maoileoin Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 FridgeFreezer, let me tell you a wee story first.... I am a target shooter. I broke a wee bit off the butthook on 1 of my rifles. I tried to explain where it was (to the German manufacturers) in words. Back came the message. "Please send a photo". So I did. Back came the message (from the humourless Germans?) "We hope you are a better shooter than a cameraman, but we see what is broken". On that story, view on. The exhaust box and the subframe and the prop shaft all conspire against me, I cant get the pump and the orange thing into frame at the one time. There are two things "in line" a 12volt pump (white/ blue in photos) and a similary sized orange ?filter? behind the pump. The pump is about the depth of the chassis.... I can try for ore photos, but trying both my phone and my "decent" camera I got no where. I do have oil in the hydraulic tank, the winch did winch forward and back, The whine that would not shut off is the issue. When engaged the pto into the winch would run, when disengaged it stopped running. All help appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain maoileoin Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 13 hours ago, miketomcat said: Sounds like it could be an electric hydraulic pump instead of the PTO driven pump. Does it look like this: https://images.app.goo.gl/P4wiarcoTDGZuFCi6 If it does and it's whining I'd say it's in need of a rebuild but it's likely it's shot. Mike Edit :Having now realized there's some pictures, it looks like the filter assembly. Have you changed the filter? Pictures are just up. I have done nothing yet except look and wonder, I am trying to identify what I have before dismembering the beast. I could survive the whine if it stopped when then PTO was disengaged. BUT while I think I can perhaps hear the gentle click of a microswitch when the PTO is operated (engine off) I cant find wires nor the switch anywhere near the pto! Incompetent or what? Under both seats is a right mess of control boxes and wiring. The LR had radio, external lights, hazzard lights everywhere and also has some form of auto revolution/auto load controller that takes control of the engine revs when it is switched on. It also has an engine cutout on the bonnet - beside the external winch controls. I am not afraid of electrics but a circuit diagram would stop me spending days in the wrong fuse box. Oh wait I have done that already ;-) The only way to stop the whine - was to switch off the engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain maoileoin Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 10 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said: With the PTO disengaged the while should stop if it's hydraulic - if it continues for any length of time I'd suspect either something electrical connected to the system (I'm not sure how the governor box thing is doing its thing) or that the PTO hasn't actually disengaged... although that's easy to check as the whining would/should be in time with engine/gearbox speed and stop when you dip the clutch. The PTO stops turning (at the bumper) when the PTO lever is pushed back. Also when the clutch is dipped. Like you I fear something in the electrics are not happy. I cant find a make/model or circuit diagram of the electrics NOR of the H14W. The pdf in this thread is 'almost' perfect, but seems to lack my electric pump and filter. Is this operator error. Not enough oil somewhere or tap the 12volt pump with a wooden hammer shaft? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sparkes Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 I feel that leaving everything in a **** state doesn't help you or anybody else to decide, or more importantly, to research, the different components. We can see that the blue thing with a white label is a 'UP9 Gear Pump' running on 12 volts. We can see that the yellow thing is marketed by Parker Hannifin, a quick Google on that name shows they are a big company that markets thousands of components. All it takes is a quick clean to possibly reveal a model or part number. I'm not saying this will suddenly reveal all the mysteries you have; I'm just using it as an obvious example of how basic housekeeping makes it easier to see the evidence. It might also help (someone else to help you) if you can say which 'utility' the vehicle was used by (water, electric, gas, railway, forestry, etc), as they might have 'in house' design characteristics around how such winches are controlled. Regards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain maoileoin Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 19 hours ago, David Sparkes said: We can see that the yellow thing is marketed by Parker Hannifin, a quick Google on that name shows they are a big company that markets thousands of components. All it takes is a quick clean to possibly reveal a model or part number. I'm not saying this will suddenly reveal all the mysteries you have; I'm just using it as an obvious example of how basic housekeeping makes it easier to see the evidence. It might also help (someone else to help you) if you can say which 'utility' the vehicle was used by (water, electric, gas, railway, forestry, etc), as they might have 'in house' design characteristics around how such winches are controlled. David: Agreed about cleaning. I am off to London for a few days on work tomorrow early. I will see if I can clean up the beast when I get back. It was Western Power Distribution as the owners. There is no livery on the beast and the MOT does not show much - except each MOT was OK. WG09LFR is the reg, the battery was knackered when I got the beast, so I suspect it had been sitting for a while. Why does it whine - perhaps pump knackered, or perhaps dry?? - maybe blockage in the pipes?? More importantly why does it not stop when the PTO goes to disengage (and the PTO shaft to the winch stops turning?) I really need a circuit diagram or somebody who has been here before. Somebody might tell me "Yes, they whine like that all the time they are running" I have no idea what is normal. I normally use my old fergie and a rope when winching, so an LR power winch is new to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted July 13, 2022 Share Posted July 13, 2022 Could the electric pump be there as a back-up for the PTO pump? If there is a PTO pump at all, that is. It's all a bit of a strange setup. First order of business would be to check the oil level for the winch, if that tank is empty that'll be the squealing - and you're burning up the pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted July 13, 2022 Share Posted July 13, 2022 I've not seen a PTO setup that features an additional electric pump, and I'd think that given the power required to run a winch most 12v pumps of any sensible size are not going to be up to the job, so all I can assume is that pump is some sort of secondary backup or possibly oil-cooling pump, or maybe even separately running something else like whatever the (unseen) system is that increases the engine idle speed when in operation. The fact it doesn't shut off with the PTO disengaged makes me think it's perhaps triggered by a pressure switch and an air-lock in the system means it's been triggered but won't shut off. I wonder if our resident winch fetishist @honitonhobbit has seen these in the wild? Although googling some of the details from your photos (the winch data plate) shows it was done by Rotec Hydraulics so perhaps they'd be willing & able to shed some light on things? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddy Posted July 14, 2022 Share Posted July 14, 2022 Given that the pump only puts out 4 bar suggests to me it is only there to help prime the system but more importantly power out the winch as a safety matter when it has been used for rigging lines. If the vehicles engine were to fail in any way the tension can be taken off the cable and the stranded vehicle moved while another takes over. the fines for running over on such projects are eye watering. I would suggest tracing all the components in the system and drawing a quick schematic to work out what's where. The Parker 'thing' is just a hydraulic oil filter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain maoileoin Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 On 7/13/2022 at 7:08 AM, elbekko said: Could the electric pump be there as a back-up for the PTO pump? If there is a PTO pump at all, that is. It's all a bit of a strange setup. First order of business would be to check the oil level for the winch, if that tank is empty that'll be the squealing - and you're burning up the pump. I guess I am trying to locate somebody who has seen one of these units and can say what the components are. The process of buying a pump and filter etc is easy, but if it fixes nothing - because I have a blockage elsewhere or such-like - is what I am trying to avoid. Below is the diagram from a superwinch install manual. It is very like mine. But as professor once taught me nearly means not. Their diagram and my LR are similar - a pump on the PTO taking the hydraulic to a motor on the chassis near the winch. A pto shaft doing the rest of it. I have checked the oil levels and it is "between the lines". It also looks clean and without grit/metal etc. The noise from the pump only started the minute I put the PTO on. And then did not stop when I took the drive off! The 12v pump was running all the time the ignition was on. It is a low-pressure pump (compared to the mechanical pump). So I assumed it was a oil cooler circulator. But when I found this diagram I withdraw that thought! I need to go get the real manual and/or go trace all the plumbing. I think that electronics are involved somewhere - with the throttle control and emergency stop all wired into a control box. I have been emailling Ian Ford at rotec - but I am away from home for days at a time, so my email responses to them are a bit sluggish- they might think I dont care! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 It would still be useful to have clearer photos of the rest of the system - especially the PTO unit on the back of the transfer box assuming there is one. The system itself is fairly simple, and you can draw out a basic diagram by following the hydraulic pipes. The electrical side is only an addition on top of the basic hydraulic + PTO setup so there's every chance it can be done away with if it's not playing properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain maoileoin Posted July 20, 2022 Share Posted July 20, 2022 9 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said: It would still be useful to have clearer photos of the rest of the system - especially the PTO unit on the back of the transfer box assuming there is one. The system itself is fairly simple, and you can draw out a basic diagram by following the hydraulic pipes. The electrical side is only an addition on top of the basic hydraulic + PTO setup so there's every chance it can be done away with if it's not playing properly. OK, I am not ignoring you but the heat is playing havoc with some of our systems! Once the world cools down a bit I will take the time to go trace everything and get a plumbing diagram and photos as good as I can make em. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain maoileoin Posted July 22, 2022 Share Posted July 22, 2022 Rotec got back to me with the engineering drawings for the units on the land-rover, I have not had time to read them yet, but they say the pump is a cooling pump and that the switch is available from them. I have tried to upload the copyright notice ! and the details of the sales guy who sent me the stuff. but I keep getting upload failed. Worked a bit. I was speaking to Ian Ford art rotec Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain maoileoin Posted October 19, 2022 Share Posted October 19, 2022 OK, simple fix for the continuous pump running. The microswitch on the end of the PTO lever was knackered. ROTEC suggested that and sold me a lucas switch. That job done. The noisy pump was an oil cooler (low pressure) circulation pump. That needed changed too. Thanks for all the input. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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