saley Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 Ps: John you quoted for ONE type 'R'And for TWO 8274's....... Again.... I think that says it all Hi Jim, im not having a go i think what you do is superb i just went hydro because i also had 8274s already but suffered brakages and the price is for TWO type R winches TWO overcentre 1 pump c/w dogclutch 1 split valve and 1 control valve 1 ally oil tank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 I have no need for such a thing but I take my hat off to Jim for developing something - that video is impressive and surely has to be one of the best electric winch setups anywhere Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 . The requirement of a winch that can pull 6 tonne or more, is to be frank daft, unless you require a vehicle to remove static loads such as tree stumps etc..... If a vehicle is that badly stuck that forward motion is impossible, STOP WINCHING because you are about to break something. I best make a note of that - thanks for the tip Congrats on the sprat, nice to see a decent top housing at last - not my cuppa but well done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bush65 Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Looks good Jim, I may get one of those top housings to try. Drive assist is very import where I am. A lot of time the tracks are badly rutted and eroded, with rock steps, tree roots and bends that have to be negotiated. Without drive assist you have little control of where to steer and that can lead to serious problems. And driving the wheels makes a lot of difference climbing steps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Because I haven't said it yet - congrats on the sprog, welcome to sleep deprivation Granted very reasonable, but second hand..... True, but your bit is a mod, not a complete new winch. List price for a brand new H14 setup is high (although not outlandish alongside twin motor 8274's), but then they're designed for utilities, heavy recovery, and military. I dare say the list price for an equivalent electric install would make even the chequebooker's eyes water. Do you require your winch to be a unit that is designed for moving static loads...? Or a unit to assist a load capable of movement...? Both - although I may well enter a few winch challenges, it's not a single-purpose vehicle and will be used for marshaling and all manner of other things. When marshaling, you need a winch that is capable of pulling people (in a dead vehicle) out of anything they are stupid enough to get themselves into. To quote Einstein: "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Drive assist is not a big issue, but when you're recovering other people you really can't rely on it being an option. Nor can you rely on having a break to recharge the batteries / cool the motors as some other muppet will come along 10 seconds later and park themselves exactly where the other guy just was. The requirement of a winch that can pull 6 tonne or more, is to be frank daft, unless you require a vehicle to remove static loads such as tree stumps etc.....If a vehicle is that badly stuck that forward motion is impossible, STOP WINCHING because you are about to break something. If it's properly rigged with a big pull in mind why would you break anything? The H14 is rated to 14k and looking at the engineering I firmly believe the rumour that they will happily pull 20. Nige's behemoth has got to pull a similar amount, and he has used it time and time again to do just that and lived to tell the tale. Sure 14k in a straight line is a lot, but add in the strange positions people can find themselves in and it's not so silly - before now we've had to use four vehicles (two winches, two anchors) to recover one (coughGUYcough). Obviously using less would be easier. You are comparing winches built for pulling 14k with one that was designed for 8k and that you are then uprating. I wouldn't fancy loading a winch to nearly twice it's design limit either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
expat69 Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 You are comparing winches built for pulling 14k with one that was designed for 8k and that you are then uprating. I wouldn't fancy loading a winch to nearly twice it's design limit either. but then... if the said 8k winch has had all of its internals reworked... does it still classify as a "8k designed winch" or more like a 10k/12k/14k winch???? One thing for sure the hydro Vs electric war is not limited to this forum. It is the same on the French speaking forums, although the french view of winching is somewhat.... different.... ("winching is BAD..."). Just gave me an idea..... If I mount a Gigglepin or Type R winch on a 4x4 Citroen 2CV, just put a skid plate underneath... forget Simex, heavy LR... the AFC07, MT07, etc trophies will be mine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Fridge, once I pull my finger out I think there could be a nice mag article comparing Andy's H14, whatever setup you go for (still hydro H14???), my Gigglepin twin overvolted XP 8274 and, maybe, Jez's type R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 but then... if the said 8k winch has had all of its internals reworked... does it still classify as a "8k designed winch" or more like a 10k/12k/14k winch???? Given that most of the casing and drum and mountings are presumably still original, I'd say an 8K designed winch...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Jim uses a smaller/wider drum on his. what equation is used to work out the pulling power? as a twin motor winch will have: more speed more available Torque gearing ratio differs if the drum diameter is smaller anyone know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Jim uses a smaller/wider drum on his.what equation is used to work out the pulling power? as a twin motor winch will have: more speed more available Torque gearing ratio differs if the drum diameter is smaller anyone know? I don't know the measurements in this example but for instance a 2 inch drum should provide 50% more line pull than a 3 inch drum for the same torque input to the end of the drum I think? 1.5 times the pull, multiplied by 2 motors could be three times the pulling power in theory? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Jim uses a smaller/wider drum on his.what equation is used to work out the pulling power? as a twin motor winch will have: more speed more available Torque gearing ratio differs if the drum diameter is smaller anyone know? You could potentially work it out from the if you knew the torque the motors were providing but when I've done it it seems pretty meaningless. Jim's setup pushes out a potential 36hp (2 x half the square of the power of the motor at 12V) which is potentially 780% more powerful than standard (4.6hp) The drum reduction from 3.5" to 2" gives an improvement in torque of approximatly 60% Overall that's about 1250% more torque or a potential pulling power of 100,000 lbs I hear a load cell calling.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 My unit is erm "a Bitsa", ......built from whatever I could get my hands on cheapish, .....and it still cost an absolute fortune, yes its 'silly' powerfull, reasoably quick, but overly complex to fit and heavy etc, ....but .....and its a big one, built from a selection of known parts new used and off the shelf....... the only "Made" bits are the Mounting and pipework, bit of research though and playing about with bits....hardly rocket science. .......Jims winch is something else !........... Built by him from a thought in his head coupled with years of playing with 8274s and wnating more, irrespective as to the electric vs hyd atrgument (never ever will all agree......... cos its nonsense) he MADE it and has produced a superb bit of kit from the seedling of thought - and for that I take my hat off to him. Too mnay people talk " Bollo.... sorry 'Hypothetically' about whats 'best' what they 'might' do 'dream' 'buy', few actaully MAKE a new product for the marketplace ....as do Jim .....and Si R .....here on this forum. It may not be my cup of tea, .......but then again when I looked and made up my mind what to go for / do / make - this did not exist - thats real progress my friends, .......and who knows what either of these 2 cracking inventors will come up with next.? I would really like to see one of these in action,...... I think for the purpose they will be put to this unit would be quite something to beat ?....but whatever I am all for innovation and ideas that make it to a product you can see .....don't knock it...few manage it ! Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Bar Cowboy Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 You could potentially work it out from the if you knew the torque the motors were providing but when I've done it it seems pretty meaningless.Jim's setup pushes out a potential 36hp (2 x half the square of the power of the motor at 12V) which is potentially 780% more powerful than standard (4.6hp) The drum reduction from 3.5" to 2" gives an improvement in torque of approximatly 60% Overall that's about 1250% more torque or a potential pulling power of 100,000 lbs I hear a load cell calling.... Will, You really need to think about this post ……………. 44 tons …….. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 You really need to think about this post The numbers suggest he didn't No accounting for losses, and is 36HP the electrical consumption or the useful output of the motor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 ..................200mm plasma should do it nicely, just 6 foot though mind you sell the snatch block, as won't need it Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Maybe Maths/spelling aren't his strong points but the winches he'll have will be top notch for an electric setup and ideal for the useage he plans for his vehicle whereas Jez needs a setup for a different set of conditions Horses for courses winch challenges/standard Milemarkers don't go hand in hand EP9 very nice winch husky good slow but very reliable. lots of other suitable for what they are designed BBC set up is very nice as is Nigels but electric is easy to fit/easy to upgrade hundreds of people can't all be wrong. I'd indeed like one of the twin motor housings as I think it would be a great set up for a heavy H/T 90. If Lagoda was my intended route of competition I' consider the TypeR as the PTO slot on mine is already in use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 hundreds of people can't all be wrong. Why not - hundreds of people have TDi 90's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 yes all working mile after mile unlike some in boxes awtg rebuilds like a certain 109 still making money on the 2nd hand market where as a V8 er no thanks it will hate water/drink fuel and misfire/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Hence why I said in the post that the figures were pretty meaningless As Ian was first to point out; 44 tonnes is a little on the high side which is why I made the load cell comment as that's probably the only way to really know Maybe I should have used a few more silly smileies to make it clear I wasn't being serious! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saley Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 two shire horses was the best way to plough a field then along came the TRACTOR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 Jim's setup pushes out a potential 36hp (2 x half the square of the power of the motor at 12V) which is potentially 780% more powerful than standard (4.6hp) Where on earth do you manage to square the power output!!! Two lots of 6hp made 12hp last time I looked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted January 3, 2007 Share Posted January 3, 2007 I have no idea but they are running the XP motors at 24 rather than 12v if that helps Wills maths (I doubt it) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 I have no idea but they are running the XP motors at 24 rather than 12v if that helps Wills maths (I doubt it) IIRC its SimonR's formula - A 12V series wound motor being run at 24V gives, theoretically, half the square of the original power. Therefore each XP potentially gives 18hp. How close / far to that figure you'll actually get I could only guess which is why I'll be interested to see load cell figures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 'sfunny but when I googled DC motor overvoltage all I could find were devices to protect against it and prevent it from happening to avoid motor damage. The only guys who seem to do it are the Robot Wars crowd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted January 4, 2007 Share Posted January 4, 2007 'sfunny but when I googled DC motor overvoltage all I could find were devices to protect against it and prevent it from happening to avoid motor damage. The only guys who seem to do it are the Robot Wars crowd. The Aussies tend to do it to winch motors too. Heat build up seems to be the biggest problem running like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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