Suspension oddness but may have a simple solution

[Peaklander]

4 hours ago, Mo Murphy said:

if 4 coils are touching, which they shouldn't be, that's 4 coils length of reduction in spring travel in compression, which is why you're so close to the bump stops.

I'm going to check mine as the top coils are touching (or almost) and I think that they were, right from the start at chassis change. I'm sure that the bump stops are miles away. I'm pretty sure that the spring colour codes that I bought are correct.

[Bowie69]

Indeed, plus progressive springs can often be a bit coil bound.

E.g.

https://www.tomcatwebshop.co.uk/trial-spring-1-progressivedual-rate-811-p.asp

 

 

 

[Peaklander]

Here's the pic of my old and new fronts. There was some discussion at the time about the different lengths with white/white for the driver's side.

I fitted them the other way up so the tighter turns are at the top and the bottom retain bar can fit through.

[Snagger]

1 hour ago, Bowie69 said:

Indeed, plus progressive springs can often be a bit coil bound.

E.g.

https://www.tomcatwebshop.co.uk/trial-spring-1-progressivedual-rate-811-p.asp

 

 

 

They can be close, but if they touching, they’re too soft and have already compressed to their limit and cannot function as a spring.

[Bowie69]

I disagree, the spring still functions as the wheel moves down.

'racecars' that use coil overs can have two different rate springs on them, the first light spring is fully bound at sitting ride height, and only used when the suspension extends once the stiffer spring starts to run out of travel.

[Snagger]

5 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

I disagree, the spring still functions as the wheel moves down.

'racecars' that use coil overs can have two different rate springs on them, the first light spring is fully bound at sitting ride height, and only used when the suspense extends once the stiffer spring starts to run out of travel.

Since the initial problem here is suspension crashing against the bump stops rather than a desire for extra articulation off road, I don’t see that being a useful attribute here.  Everything is pointing at the springs being knackered, and LR don’t make springs that are meant to be closed up while static.

[Bowie69]

4 minutes ago, Snagger said:

Everything is pointing at the springs being knackered

It really isn't, on the old shocks it didn't smack the bump stops, it does now, seems to me the dampers are unsuitable, most likely too soft?

OP even says:

Quote

I can recall fitting the Armstrongs and compressing them to get them inside the springs and the self-extension was very strong to the point where it was a struggle compressing them again to get the bushes in, when they were actually inside the springs. The Monroes were really easy to compress and it was signficantly and noticeaby less bother.

This coupled with other people's experience saying similar things about the Monroes, I know what I would suspect. 

8 minutes ago, Snagger said:

rather than a desire for extra articulation off road,

Not sure where this came from, a non-progressive spring would give you more articulation, progressive spring rate is about controlling the wheel at different loadings, light loadings = light spring = better ride.

If the ride height is correct, then it can't possibly be the springs. I would suggest everything is pointing at the shocks, it is after all the only thing that was changed to introduce the problem!

[Jocklandjohn]

2 hours ago, hurbie said:

if it was my car , i would try a different set of shocks , (just use the standard armstrong shocks for a whooping 25 ish pounds ...)(https://www.terraintechparts.com/collections/land-rover-suspension-shock-absorbers ) 

  the vehicle was fine before the swop to new shocks ....

I was trying to and could not find a single dealer able to supply due to current shortages (apparently). If the  company you link to (thank you!) do actually have them that'd be good!

[Jocklandjohn]

3 hours ago, hurbie said:

if it was my car , i would try a different set of shocks , (just use the standard armstrong shocks for a whooping 25 ish pounds ...)(https://www.terraintechparts.com/collections/land-rover-suspension-shock-absorbers ) 

  the vehicle was fine before the swop to new shocks ....

Just tried the company you linked to and they're still not available, and tried several others companies too and none have any in stock.  I did a thorough search for same-as replacement before getting the new Monroes but none were available anywhere it seems. There are Boge & Britpart versions but no idea what they are like.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Jocklandjohn

[Bowie69]

Boge are OK, and some of the Britpart ones actually got better reviews than expected (is that saying something? not sure...)

[Jocklandjohn]

4 minutes ago, Bowie69 said:

Boge are OK, and some of the Britpart ones actually got better reviews than expected (is that saying something? not sure...)

Well Boge made the original leveler for the rear as far as I recall. They've been around for yonks. Britpart is weird - some of the stuff is excellent, some not so good, all a bit hit or miss!

[Bowie69]

Just now, Jocklandjohn said:

Well Boge made the original leveler for the rear as far as I recall.

Correct.

[Peaklander]

Still trying to help the original post These are my fronts. There’s no way that they have gone soft in three years.

The pics are with the vehicle level. When the axle drops away, the upper coils will open.

When it moves back up they will compress. When it moves up further then the lower coils will compress.

Isn’t that what will happen?

 

 

 

[Jocklandjohn]

1 hour ago, Peaklander said:

Still trying to help the original post These are my fronts. There’s no way that they have gone soft in three years.

The pics are with the vehicle level. When the axle drops away, the upper coils will open.

When it moves back up they will compress. When it moves up further then the lower coils will compress.

Isn’t that what will happen?

 

 

 

Yes. Thats exactly right. 

Its easy to forget on suspension that as one side goes down, often the opposite side extends, so controlled movement in both directions is required.

My front spring spacing looks pretty much like yours. I've ordered a pair of Boge front oil shocks and will fit them, see how it performs and I'll report back!  Thanks for the help & guidance thus far, its very much appreciated (and that extends to all of you who have contributed!)

Edited November 16, 2021 by Jocklandjohn

[Badger110]

Dude i'm sorry but i didn't measure mine, call it old age and forgetfulness 

 

Did you get it sorted?

[Jocklandjohn]

Update (sigh!)

After much toing and froing and getting nowhere I decided to remove the Monroes and fit something else so ordered Boge for the front and Bilstein for the rears (as the back is pretty soft too) Rears arrived already so....

So...sit down for this....and make notes in case you end up where I am currently...

Pulled off a Monroe from the back, went to fit the Bilstein. No metal sleeve in the upper bush. Ok I have a pair of sleeves in a box somewhere along with various bushes so dig them out and try to press them through the Bilstein with the vice. Which tears the bush, but the sleeve still wont go in. Get second metal sleeve and file an edge to round so it will slip through more easily. Plenty lubrication and try again on the other shock but it would still not go through...and tears the bush again. Groan.

Pulled the torn bush out and see a distinctly narrower internal profile in the shock eye which would stop a metal sleeve going through....

Gave up and drank beer.

Penny dropped at 11pm - maybe there's not meant to be a metal sleeve in the upper bush!

Maybe it fits 'bare' on the upper eye! So back out to garage, looked in box of assorted bits and found the two pairs of LR rear shock bushes one set two-part that donated the metal sleeves, and the other a one part press-through fitment. I measure the hole in the LR bushes with Vernier, its much bigger than the Bilstein hole by quite a margin. Measure the Bilstein bush hole, and the upper shock pin...and they're all pretty close in size. So my suspicion is the bush does not require a metal sleeve.

Ok, this morning I call dealer and explain saga and who is very puzzled but agrees to contact Bilstein and find out whats going on and get back to me.

While waiting for a return call I think I'll call Bilstein myself so google and find Bilstein-shocks uk in a gloriously Bilsteinesque website with mahoosove Bilstein logos all over it and loads of very professional-looking Bilsteiny stuff everywhere. ITS BILSTEIN!

Online chat went EXACTLY like this:

Me: explains problem

Them: Are you aware we're not Bilstein?

Me: Its a Bilstein Website with Bilstein written all over it!

Them: We are not!

Me: (utterly baffled now!): So why is your user name Allan@bilsten-shocks.co.uk then?

Them: Oh Okay

Me: What?

Them: We are an authorised dealer.

Me: Advise me how to resolve my problem then please?

Them: We're not a manufacturer we cant help you, you need Bilstein.

Me: What?

Them: Here's a link to them.

Me: Thank you.

Goes and bangs head against wall and lies down.

Call back to shocke vendor later. They tell me they got in touch with Bilstein and Bilstein said "you can fit a standard Land Rover bush so thats what to do!"

Me: I've partly tried it - it wont fit. The two part bushes wont go in far enough as the shock eye is too narrow, and the one part might squeeze through but the metal sleeve then wont fit in the hole. So....

I hang up, and decide to call Bilstein, which I did an hour ago, just before closing time.

I get a very helpful woman who is well-versed in this stuff and informs me, after consulting with colleague,  that Bilstein changed the bush type around 1999 to this new one that is NOT like the LR part, and which is intended to FIT WITH NO METAL SLEEVE. She also said that the dealer should know this and have informed me when I purchased them. Sigh. (when googling this earlier in the day I found a post in a LR forum by someone who'd bought a 110 with these shocks fitted and was trying to replace the worn bushes with LR bits and was going mad trying to get them to go in and had ended up having to shave an LR rubber bush with a penknife to get it to go on then drill it to try to fit the metal sleeve - so someone else was also not aware of the bush size difference and no-metal-sleeve fitment...!)

I asked very nice Bilstein woman for a part number...and got it...but she could not sell me a pair as they do not supply the public direct so I need to go back to the dealer. Watch this space.

So there you go - oh...and also...the lower mounting pin non-threaded section is too long - (or the bushes Bilstein supply are too thin)  so if you use them and wind up the nut you hit the top end of the thread before the shock tightens in the axle mount, so the shock is wobbly at the bottom but easy enough to shim with washers or add a thicker bush... but yet another little foible to be aware of.

I am now going to bang my head on the wall again then drink more beer to take the pain away.

Yours in a miasma of Land Rovering,  jocklandjohn

 

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Jocklandjohn

[Jocklandjohn]

6 minutes ago, Badger110 said:

Dude i'm sorry but i didn't measure mine, call it old age and forgetfulness 

 

Did you get it sorted?

Not a problem thanks!    Read the above!!   Will be putting new shocks on the front soon - I hope. I am currently trying to find more beer.....

[Badger110]

Blimey, i'd be on the beer too after that lot!

 

 

[western]

Bit of a screw up on Bilsteins & the dealers part not telling anyone about the bushes, it would drive me nuts to, 

[Nonimouse]

John, A suggestion. 

Ring Richard at SuperPro. He's a busy man, but he knows suspension. SP work with Bilstien Europe to provide dealer replacement kist for a number of 4x4's. The also work with Eibach. Richard also has access to SuperPro Au's founder (and owner of Fulcrum Suspension), a chap called John Scudamore-Smith, who has 50+ years of suspension experience.

I've just been out and checked the Bilstien shocks in the garage - no metal sleeves. I 've fitted a lot of Bilstien shocks over the years, as they are what I recomend to build clients. I don't recall metal sleeves

[Jocklandjohn]

3 hours ago, Nonimouse said:

John, A suggestion. 

Ring Richard at SuperPro. He's a busy man, but he knows suspension. SP work with Bilstien Europe to provide dealer replacement kist for a number of 4x4's. The also work with Eibach. Richard also has access to SuperPro Au's founder (and owner of Fulcrum Suspension), a chap called John Scudamore-Smith, who has 50+ years of suspension experience.

I've just been out and checked the Bilstien shocks in the garage - no metal sleeves. I 've fitted a lot of Bilstien shocks over the years, as they are what I recomend to build clients. I don't recall metal sleeves

Thanks very much, I'll file that for future use - I really appreciate it. I got sorted (I think!). But I've got SP bushes all round which I fitted several years ago and they're excellent, so if they do a specific Bilstein-fit bush I'll certainly try and get them for when I need them.

I contacted shock vendor this morning - they said "I forwarded your message to our supplier,  hence why we didn't know this information, and going on the information they have provided me, Unfortunately, they won't be able to get the part that is required separately quickly."     Okaaay!

So then contacted another specialist Bilstein stockist and they said (sit down folks!): "W don’t stock this in the UK, and to be perfectly honest this would cost more than the value of the damper to get over from the warehouse this is stored at the moment."   Phew. Time to bang my head on the wall again....

Decided I should go back to actual Bilstein UK HQ and spoke again with Tech folks. Very perplexed - "We sell loads  of these shocks to LR folks and nobody has complained about the odd fit and lack of metal insert." However I did get a recommendation to go to another Bilstein approved dealer in the North of England.

Called them - boy what a service. "Yes John we can have a look and let you know". Twenty minutes later they phoned back "Bilstein have stocks of these bushes in the UK, we can get them to you for Thursday if thats ok? £10 each."

So they're on their way.

 

Curiously though I had a good chat with the tech rep at Bilstein UK HQ and asked if the bottom (pin) bushes were also bush-chassis fitment same as top - he'd said "All the fitting hardware come with the shock"

So, thats a rubber bush with no metal insert in the upper eye, and at the bottom you fit a top washer then bush then axle then bush then washer and bolt. So no 'crown' cups as standard on normal LR shocks. He confirmed that was correct. However if one does that as recommended the securing bolt on the lower pin comes to the end of the threaded section before it has started to tighten on the bushes and you can physically lift the shock absorber lower section up and down in the axle!

Be aware folks!

[Nonimouse]

Generally the metal insert in a shock is becuase it's OE fitment had/has a bigger diameter mount.

Shocks are interesting things. As LR is a low volume manufacturer, especially compared to Jeep or Toyota, most after market LR shocks are actually built for other vehicles then 'modified' to fit LR or UMM or so and so forth. The LR market is tiny...

The metal sleeve is not essential - it doesn't come with Woodhead, Delphi or Gabriel who actually make shocks for Land Rover.

Also shocks are generally very cheap. A standard Terrafirma gas shock comes in to the UK at less than a fiver wholsale.  If you have no lift on the vehicle and are running Red/Red on the rear, white/white or yellow/yellow on the front I'd buy standard gas shocks - usually Delphi or Sachs. Both good makes and very high quality for a very cheap price

 

[Jocklandjohn]

3 minutes ago, Nonimouse said:

Generally the metal insert in a shock is becuase it's OE fitment had/has a bigger diameter mount.

Shocks are interesting things. As LR is a low volume manufacturer, especially compared to Jeep or Toyota, most after market LR shocks are actually built for other vehicles then 'modified' to fit LR or UMM or so and so forth. The LR market is tiny...

The metal sleeve is not essential - it doesn't come with Woodhead, Delphi or Gabriel who actually make shocks for Land Rover.

Also shocks are generally very cheap. A standard Terrafirma gas shock comes in to the UK at less than a fiver wholsale.  If you have no lift on the vehicle and are running Red/Red on the rear, white/white or yellow/yellow on the front I'd buy standard gas shocks - usually Delphi or Sachs. Both good makes and very high quality for a very cheap price

 

I've had the odd one out experience then because every shock I've ever fitted on the rear over the last 25 years has had metal inserts! So are the inserts simply a 'shim' then to accommodate differing diameters?

[Nonimouse]

1 hour ago, Jocklandjohn said:

I've had the odd one out experience then because every shock I've ever fitted on the rear over the last 25 years has had metal inserts! So are the inserts simply a 'shim' then to accommodate differing diameters?

On most of the cheaper end , yes (cheaper being up to £75.00 a shock) and in some case on the more expensive; the Procomp MX-6 often comes with a selction of tubes of differing thickness

[Jocklandjohn]

1 hour ago, Nonimouse said:

On most of the cheaper end , yes (cheaper being up to £75.00 a shock) and in some case on the more expensive; the Procomp MX-6 often comes with a selction of tubes of differing thickness

All a bit of a journey of discovery this Land Rovering!  The Bilstein tech basically said "Given the variations of build over the years if there's some slightly ill-fitting part of a shock or bush thats to go on an older Land Rover I imagine those owners would just fix it with a spoon or something, which is why hardly anyone ever mentions the bushes are too loose". 

Ok! He has a point!