Roamerdrive (Defender) noise

[Snagger]

A lot of peace-of-mind work there.  I think it was worth removing the aft bearing to pull the seal; that is the bearing that caused my woes from oil starvation when my transfer box leaked, so would appear to be the most susceptible to starvation and temperature issues.  I’d have been a little concerned had you chosen to leave the seal long term just to avoid an afternoon’s work and a quick visit to your tamed specialists.

Happy birthday.

[FridgeFreezer]

Great work, thanks for looking for me!

Love a good technical thread

[Peaklander]

9 hours ago, Snagger said:

just to avoid an afternoon’s work and a quick visit to your tamed specialists.

Ha, you are so harsh. I had thought about it, between leaving their place and the rebuild but I was a little concerned about going back and trying their patience. I now know them even better and they would have done it happily then.

Instead, I relied on the temperature stickers. As soon as I saw the readings in November, I knew that I would be going back in.

@FridgeFreezer, if you identify a suitable pump and decide to proceed, I will follow your lead. Please let me know.

[FridgeFreezer]

1 hour ago, Peaklander said:

@FridgeFreezer, if you identify a suitable pump and decide to proceed, I will follow your lead. Please let me know.

It's a fair way down my projects list if I'm honest - but I'll try to remember if I ever get round to it!

Just digging through my emails, I've previously had an exchange with Ray who's incredibly helpful and this is what I've got;

Quote

The earliest overdrives built between 1999 and 2007 used a smaller ball bearing in the rear.  When we redesigned the overdrive in 2008 we made the case shorter and went to a larger diameter bearing to better accommodate the extra power of the chipped TD5s. 

 

Nothing else changed until about 2012 when me made a small but significant change in the way thrust washers on the planet gears are lubricated - following ZF German practice rather than GM American practice. Your overdrive (Serial number DSB 130803T shows that this was the third overdrive built in August 2013) with the T suffix indicates this unit follows this change so in essence the unit is the same as those in production today.

So it looks like there's a fairly easy way to decode a serial number into the likely revision status of any given unit.

Where that leaves me oiling-wise I'm not entirely clear, I'm not rushing to make mods to it as there's a load of other stuff to worry about on the to-do list

[elbekko]

1 hour ago, Peaklander said:

Ha, you are so harsh. I had thought about it, between leaving their place and the rebuild but I was a little concerned about going back and trying their patience. I now know them even better and they would have done it happily then.

Instead, I relied on the temperature stickers. As soon as I saw the readings in November, I knew that I would be going back in.

@FridgeFreezer, if you identify a suitable pump and decide to proceed, I will follow your lead. Please let me know.

I remember a guy on Pirate who made an oil pump for the LT230 because he kept killing them in his Ultra4 car. Might be worth looking up.

[Peaklander]

23 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Where that leaves me oiling-wise I'm not entirely clear

That means you have the latest synchro cone at the planetary housing. This has the oil-way holes rather than the previous slots, or the early 'nothing'. (see my pics for comparison). You also have the newer rear case with the larger 6205 bearing.

12 minutes ago, elbekko said:

remember a guy on Pirate

What's that? Do I need a link?

[elbekko]

59 minutes ago, Peaklander said:

What's that? Do I need a link?

I think it's in this thread somewhere: https://www.pirate4x4.com/threads/i-blew-up-my-lt-230-at-koh-and-it-took-me-out.1626818/page-8

It's been a few years...

[FridgeFreezer]

Some great tech in that thread, although their solution of running a small pump off the PTO cover is a bit difficult with an overdrive in the way I'm sure a solution could be found.

[elbekko]

51 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

Some great etch in that thread, although their solution of running a small pump off the PTO cover is a bit difficult with an overdrive in the way I'm sure a solution could be found.

True, but gives an idea of what sort of size of pump works and such.

[FridgeFreezer]

For a small dribble into the rear bearing I wonder if you could run a very small pump off the speedo drive 🤔

[Peaklander]

It's back together and hooked onto the Transfer Box. I approached the installation of the three shifting plates with great confidence, having done them the first time using the extra instructions that I posted earlier. However there is a real knack to them and I had a frustrating time (many times) as I tried to get the first one engaged with the hook on the spring on the other side of the hub. Eventually, possibly 50 trys later, it was in. The other two are easy and then the other spring is fitted in the opposite orientation, as in this photo, although I have posted similar higher up the thread.

 

 

I might wander to see Mister Gearbox when I get chance and see if they have any ideas about a pump for the rear bearing.

A trip down the M42/M5 beckons soon and I have applied new temperature tell-tales, so we will see.

[Peaklander]

Just one more observation that might be helpful. I had previously followed the lead by @FridgeFreezer and fitted a sight-glass to the Transfer Box. I filled it to halfway, equivalent to the level plug / tell-tale that is supplied with the Roamerdrive for that same hole. Then I added the required 0.75 litres directly to the Roamerdrive. Somewhere after about 0.5 litres the sight-glass was covered.

I don't know what happens during use and how much of that 0.75 migrates to the TBox or vice-versa as don't remember draining the overdrive first, in order to measure, before draining the TBox. Next time I will try to remember to do just that.

[Retroanaconda]

Interesting regards the sight glass - is it just a standard 3/4” BSP one you’ve used? Like the below?

 

(assuming I have remembered the thread size properly!)

Edited February 2, 2023 by Retroanaconda
Removed web link

[Peaklander]

Yes that’s right. A viscous fan spanner work. I mentioned it on page 5 too. The glass is covered with the necessary oil quantity though…

[Junglie]

12 hours ago, Retroanaconda said:

Interesting regards the sight glass - is it just a standard 3/4” BSP one you’ve used? Like the below?

(link removed)

(assuming I have remembered the thread size properly!)

Um...

 

[FridgeFreezer]

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/liquid-level-indicators/9149599

Although RS are very spendy, ye local hydraulics shoppe should be able to sell you one for a lot less.

[Retroanaconda]

Local hydraulics shop is not very local, so have ordered one off eBay - thanks.

[Peaklander]

I drove on the motorway for the first time since I refitted the OD for the second time. A previous day out had been a nice Peak District slow wandering of 70 miles on a few lanes and some of the smallest roads, mainly south of Buxton, north of Hartington and east of Leek.

At the weekend though, I had a steady drive at 65-70mph up to Ripon, to attend a first for me - a stall at a 'Spares Day'. I had gathered-up all my redundant parts and a few other items and had a go.

It was very much worth the effort. I think that adding a label with a price tag really helped. The funniest bit was the people scanning the stalls well before the official start time. One guy tried to haggle over the price of my snorkel, first knocking 20% off the ticket. I told him that was a bit cheeky as it was still only 9:15 (9:30 start), so then he offered to "split the difference". So I asked him to stroll on. A few minutes after the proper start time I sold it to the first person that picked it up, for the asking price.

Anyway, the round trip of about 180 miles was mostly at high speed (M1 & A1) and the temperature stickers have just crept into the low 90s C. So I am cautiously optimistic that things are OK.

[Snagger]

Good result on both counts!

[Northwards]

Well I've not been here for a while.... and my Roamerdrive has sat in a box in bits. I've just been seriously over-committed with two Defenders to get back on the road, as well as work/end of financial year/decline in funding stuff.... pooh.

But the time has come to try and get my unit together. In the meantime I did decide to buy a hydraulic press and that does make work much, much easier and more controlled. 

I have the whole of the front planetary assembly back in place, including the "difficult" circlip - which I didn't have a problem with on the way back. The case is still in two parts, and the next significant step is putting the sunshaft, shifter mechanism and 'slippers' back into the rear housing. Maybe this evening. 

I do have a question to ask about the colour of the oil residue in the rear casing, but because I haven't a proper pic I'll leave that till later. 

Meanwhile, if this works, I'll quote one of Peaklander's posts from up above.. 

On 4/19/2022 at 2:29 PM, Peaklander said:

I'm ready to rebuild this and hope to do so on Wednesday. Global Roamer advised that I should drill an oil-way in the front cover. This is positioned so that it lines-up with an existing one in the transfer box, used for the PTO.

 

Roamerdrive say that its position is easy to determine as the gasket can be used to position it and the required hole is only 7mm whereas the one on the TB is bigger. When I picked up the front case of the OD to plan the drilling, I found that there's a hole there already. However the gasket I received with the parts that were supplied doesn't have that hole. It can't be incorrectly positioned as the PTO cover-plate holes aren't symmetrical.

This is the gasket I used when I first installed the OD, looking at the TBox, with the input shaft already fitted and the hole is there at 10 o'clock and wasn't covered by the gasket.

 

 

The installation instructions are clear - 

 

 

Here is the front case of the Roamerdrive, looking from the TBox. The pen is sitting in the hole.

 

Now with the supplied gasket sitting on it - hole blocked. There is an 'extra' hole across on the other side which makes it look as though it's the wrong orientation but I can't flip over as the six bolt holes don't align.

 

I am checking holes with Global Roamer but in any case the start of the rebuild is to press the synchro hub onto the new sun shaft and then press the new planet gear shafts into the front synchro cone. The first operation is going to be tricky I think.

 

 

This post is directly relevant to my question, and that's to do with the different sizes of oil supply/feed holes in the transfer box casing and OD. The one in the TBox must be what, 12 or 14mm; the one in the Roamerdrive about 8mm. I don't really understand the oil flow between the TBox and OD. I can see how the TBox gears rotating can lift oil from the sump and distribute it throughout the TBox; but how does the oil move 'sideways/backwards' into the OD unit? Obviously some will splash through the cut-outs in the picture immediately above, but how important is the additional oil feed hole? I assume very important, which makes me wonder if there's any reason that couldn't be drilled out and enlarged a little? I can't see that taking it from 8mm to 10 or 11 would risk starving the TBox of oil - as excess would simply flow back out of the OD anyway - but it might make a % difference to the amount of oil circulating around the OD?

Any thoughts on that? 

I am seriously pondering just drilling/tapping some holes in the rear of the casing and the TBox sump before I fit them back onto the car. Then, even if I don't go as far as fitting an oil pump at this stage, I'd have the tappings ready for use in the future. 

[Peaklander]

I'm glad that you are about to continue the re-assembly and congratulations on getting the input shaft in without any hassle. I really don't know that I can advise about the hole. It is odd that it's only 7mm yet the matching hole on the TBox is bigger. Ray Wood made it clear that this additional oilway is needed, so it must work but I don't know how. There again I don't know how the TBox oil splashes about. If a lot flows through then maybe as you say, the OD fills-up more and more before reaching a point where it would act as a weir back into the TBox?

As for the external pump idea - I await further news from you and @FridgeFreezer and will shamelessly copy any good idea. By then though we will have completed the next trip Itay - Greece - North Macedonia - Bulgaria - Romania, in May / June. Hoping for nice warm / hot weather and an unstressed OD.

I haven't looked yet at my temperature monitor stickers following a trip to Sleaford. I did stay in OD for most of the A1 part of the trip but that was only 30 mins or so, so hardly a big test!

Good luck with the final push - the synchro sliders are a fiddle but it sounds as though you will breeze through it.

[Snagger]

I have no idea about that oilway.  The SX version, at least the earlier long cased type, don’t have it - they rely entirely on the Archimedes screw cut into the outside of the output shaft.

[Northwards]

I had a ‘guddle’ about inside the TBox next to the oilway. I don’t think there is anything specific in the casting intended to drive oil towards it. It would be really interesting to have some insights into the oil flow within the LT230, particularly in relation to any PTO device. I guess most of them were intended to have their own lubrication, but then why the oilway in the casing…? Maybe it’s just as simple as big, splashy gears spinning around?

Anyway, in other news, I’ve moved on from dithering about getting the rear OD casing and the extended sump tapped and drilled and handed them over to a hydraulics workshop in town. I’d hoped to have them back today so that I could make progress, but one of the guys has just phoned and said that they think the centre of the R’drive casing is only about 4mm thick at that point; same with the sump. He reckons that would only give the depth of alu. for about three turns of any fitting thread, and because it’s aluminium that this wouldn’t be enough. His suggestion was to weld on some extra aluminium in both locations and then do the drilling/tapping. I’ve just asked him to go ahead with that. Pics to follow when I get it back.

When I first fit this, without a pump solution emerging yet (see the other thread about Roamerdrive lubrication), then I’ll just have blanks inserted. In theory these will be additional points of failure, but in reality I can’t see it being an issue.

I’ll also be using the temperature tell-tale stickers; and I’ll be monitoring temperatures in real time via a sensor and my Madman gauge. This should show if I’d want a pump AND cooler, or just a pump simply intended to feed a little fresh oil into that rearmost, smallest bearing.

[Northwards]

Well, all I can say is that I'm very glad it occurred to me to get this professionally done rather than trying anything DIY. As Peaklander has said above a couple of times 'peace of mind' is an important thing and this work will give me a lot more of that.

As above, they were concerned that the casings as standard were too thin and that, being aluminium, there would be a real risk of threads being stripped. So, he has brazed/welded on a new boss to both the casing and the sump and then fitted an insert into this. 1/8 BSP thread, and currently sealed by Dowty washers. I also have the take-off tails.

 

The location of the tapping in the back of OD casing is perfect - oil emerging here will flow into the bearing, rather than onto the big nut at the end of the sun shaft assembly; and it's flush with the casing face so avoiding any conflict with the rotating nut; and maximising the space for oil to flow into. 

I'm absolutely delighted with this, and all for the huge sum of £57!

Just to get the car moving again I'll re-assemble the unit/fit the sump just as they are here, with the new ports blanked off. Then I'll continue to google and keep an eye on the other 'Roamerdrive lubrication' thread to see if a suitable pump turns up.

I've had a look at where that might go, and I think it would be an easy fit. I have a Td5 chassis on my truck and there's a crossmember just behind the gearbox/transfer box. I think it would be child's play to make up a bracket around that to house a pump; and there's power close by from the battery box. Even if a cooler was eventually thought necessary then I think that could go along the same crossmember somewhere. 

A further electrical wrinkle would be trying to make the pump thermostatically controlled/ignition-on only but my 'Madman' gauge has a 'fan control' output which can be linked to any of the four sensor inputs so again, not too difficult to work out. 

Meantime, it's a case of get it back together, fit a few temperature stickers and see what happens.

[Peaklander]

That does look good. The offset feed is a good idea, although I measured 3mm clearance between the rear of the shaft (the nut is forward of this) and the face of the case where your port has been added, so I'd imagine that's enough oil space. 'Belt and braces' is good though.

Have you got the hub / rear bearing assy pressed back into the case yet? That is the last bit before the re-assembly.