Roamerdrive (Defender) noise

[western]

On 10/8/2022 at 12:01 PM, FridgeFreezer said:

@western @Retroanaconda this thread needs to be in the tech archive!

Done Linked to the Gearbox/Transfer box/Overdrive/Underdrives section as Roamer drive noise problem on a Defender

[reb78]

5 hours ago, Peaklander said:

It's very very wet today and I have postponed my first drive. I don't want to be lying in a pool of water when checking for leaks. So it will have to wait.

 

Meanwhile I have been thinking about the now 'spare' input gear to the LT230. This no longer has the front bearing cone on it as it has been transferred to the OD input shaft.

I think I will make-up a retro-fit kit that I can have ready for if I ever have a catastrophic failure of the Roamerdrive. With all my recent efforts I hope I never will. It could be boxed and ready to ship to me wherever I happen to be. That would be the rear carrier and (PTO) cover, plus the bolts and sealant. Also the input gear itself - but it would be no good without the front bearing. So I have bought another, having just destroyed the old one that was on the OD input shaft and which had been made redundant due to the LT230 overhaul / upgrade whilst the OD was off the vehicle! That would have done as a get-me-home.

The part number is FRC5564 I believe, which is a 18790 (cone) and 18720 (cup) and Ashcroft use Timken, so that's what I have bought for £22.68 delivered.

This is the now redundant LT230 input gear (no rust, just shiny oil and dust), which has the same bearing at both ends. Also what would be the complete 'kit' of parts, to which I will add the new bearing and sealant.

          

 

I did this too when I fitted my GKN. I carried it with me for some time. Now its in a box somewhere but would be ready to post if needed too.

[Snagger]

Yep, after my first Fairey played up, I put the original transfer box bits in a box and had them in the 109’s tub tool box.  Doesn’t take much space, and they stay there to this day.

[Snagger]

20 hours ago, Northwards said:

Thanks Snagger - I must have worded that badly. I agree the matting can be a bit of a pig, but I’ve never struggled that much with it, though I do normally resort to removing the handbrake lever!

I was actually talking about cutting the transmission tunnel itself though - this is the thing I find myself having more of a battle with. If it was joined and sealed somehow; and hidden under the matting, I wonder what the downsides might be?

I thought all Defenders have a tunnel cover that sits above the foot well floor plates, making it easy to remove, unlike the Series vehicles where the tunnel has deep flanges under the floors, so they have to come out first.

I modified the tunnel on mine using a scrap second tunnel to have the floor flanges and an upright lip on each side support a tunnel top with the flanges removed.  Makes life a lot easier.

[Peaklander]

The floor plates stay down and in theory the tunnel lifts up and away. This isn't too much of a problem if you remove the R380 stick and LT230 stick because then it can be moved back to clear the fusebox relays. However the Roamerdrive lever pokes up a long way and this, I think, can't be unscrewed from the pivot arm on the side of the R380. That means it prevents the tunnel from moving back.

Maybe I should have tried to remove it and saved myself some trouble!

[Northwards]

5 hours ago, Peaklander said:

 

The part number is FRC5564 I believe, which is a 18790 (cone) and 18720 (cup) and Ashcroft use Timken, so that's what I have bought for £22.68 delivered.

Cunning plan, I agree with that. A quick question though - is the cup itself, inside the transfer box, readily accessible/removable in an emergency type of situation? 

 

Snagger: On the transmission tunnel - it is a one piece tunnel, and sits above the floor plates, but it's made to be a tight fit. If you could line it up directly above the gap and lower it straight down into place it would be a doddle, but of course you can't. The rear lower edge fouls the seatbox and you need to stretch/push/pull/thump it int place. In the grand scheme of things it's not the worst thing to do, but I've always thought it was unecessarily difficult and that with a bit of engineering thought, they could have made it much easier.

[Peaklander]

35 minutes ago, Northwards said:

is the cup itself, inside the transfer box

It's at the front, against the gearbox. I can't imagine how it could be removed. You can see it there in the picture. That's the view when either the input gear or the OD has been removed.

Edit: maybe there is a cunning method and I would love to know how...

[Northwards]

Thanks Peaklander - that’s more or less exactly what I thought to be honest, though I didn’t take any photos like that when I fitted my OD. Afraid I certainly don’t have any tips or tricks to remove it. It would be visible if you removed the transferbox inspection plate/sump, but I still can’t think of a tool that would remove it from that angle without potentially causing a lot more damage.

I suppose though that, assuming it wasn’t that specific bearing that was the problem, then a new cone into an old cup would still qualify as an “emergency/get me home” solution and make it worthwhile carrying the input gear, cover plate etc.

[Peaklander]

10 minutes ago, Northwards said:

I suppose though that, assuming it wasn’t that specific bearing that was the problem, then a new cone into an old cup would still qualify as an “emergency/get me home” solution and make it worthwhile carrying the input gear, cover plate etc.

It would be unlikely to be the cup so yes, a different Timken cone is what I am planning to put in the kit. Probably ready-mounted on the input gear. Then it really would be an easy field swap. 

[FridgeFreezer]

3 hours ago, Peaklander said:

This isn't too much of a problem if you remove the R380 stick and LT230 stick because then it can be moved back to clear the fusebox relays. However the Roamerdrive lever pokes up a long way and this, I think, can't be unscrewed from the pivot arm on the side of the R380. That means it prevents the tunnel from moving back.

Uh what?

I've removed our tunnel a few times and not needed to touch the gear stick or hi/low lever (and I think I've removed it since the roamerdrive went in too) - but the Roamerdrive lever I'm pretty sure unscrews from the pivot as it's in a rubber bushing to dampen vibration.

[reb78]

I have run tens of thousands of miles with a non matched bearing and race (think thats what you are calling a cup). I fitted my OD at 150k and didnt change the race. Its run for about 120k like this. Its not the done thing but seems fine.  I certainly wouldnt worry as a temporary measure. 

Edited October 20, 2022 by reb78

[Peaklander]

44 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said:

I've removed our tunnel a few times and not needed to touch the gear stick or hi/low lever (and I think I've removed it since the roamerdrive went in too) - but the Roamerdrive lever I'm pretty sure unscrews from the pivot as it's in a rubber bushing to dampen vibration.

Well you’d better come and show me how then. I’m sure you are right about the Roamerdrive lever, I haven’t tried but the tunnel is thick, inflexible along its length and gets stuck under the relay bases.

[Peaklander]

48 minutes ago, reb78 said:

race (think thats what you are calling a cup)

The outer race is the cup and the inner race the cone. 

[Peaklander]

Had a couple of short runs today, a 'there and back' to do some more sorting out at my late Father-in-law's. So that was only 20 miles or so but the OD felt and sounded OK. I had to run it engaged in lower gears as it's hard to go above 50 mph around here. There are no oil leaks, the movement in and out of engaged feels good. I have added another temperature sticker to it, as the rear bearing location which has one, is cooler than the main body. So I added one to the body. The oil level is high, covering the sight glass. I might just check that is really is there and not dirt!

I can tentatively say "it's done" but I need a longer run to be sure. Then at the end of the week we are going to the M25, so should get a good test then.

[Peaklander]

We completed a 450 mile trip over the last few days, down to Epping and then across to Oxfordshire. We camped near Epping and used the Central line to get into London for a wedding. Weren't expecting a 20 deg C day on 29th October but we didn't grumble. Had great fun in the warm late evening on Saturday, walking on fields from the station to get to the campsite. In Oxfordshire we met a nice chap, @landroversforever and we chatted about the very similar paths we have trod over the years, in a number of ways. Nice to meet you finally Ross (and I visited his workshop).

Anyway I digress, the Roamerdrive worked without a hitch, no noise as far as I could discern and the operation to engage / disengage,  is very smooth and 'soft'. I did most of these miles with it engaged and it really does work nicely because 3rd OD is the same as 4th. Similarly, 4th OD is 5th meaning that it's ok to stay in OD and drop from 5th to 4th on inclines.

The temperature stickers show that the rear of the casing maxed at 99-104 deg C but the underneath was a bit higher

 

 

The transfer box was ok

 

According to Roamerdrive blurb, the temperature shouldn't exceed 110 deg C so I presume these numbers are OK. On the motorway I was driving at a max of 70 mph but usually nearer 65 when 'cruising', so there was no 'aggression' in my 300TDi.

[elbekko]

I would think the inclines where you have to downshift probably have more impact on the temperature than motorway cruising. I would think it's probably worth shifting out of OD before downshifting.

The stickers are nice, but a thermocouple logger might give more insight into when and for how long it runs hot.

[Peaklander]

This is a couple of extracts from the installation manual...

 

It is suggesting that motorway hills might be better tackled by dis-engaging the OD, saying that the shorter stick is more convenient. I don't do that, as I have a raised cubby, due to heater box under it and this means that the Roamerdrive stick is a bit of a stretch. So I drop into 4th OD

Now, off the motorway, I don't think I leave it engaged much, especially if I want to pull away from a halt quickly. However it is nice to use it across 1st to 2nd because that change is at a higher speed. Normal 1st to 2nd comes quickly.

 

The oil temperature max of 110deg C is also mentioned in the manual. I have the extended sump of course, and am running a little more oil (to the top of that sight glass) and i have a standard 300TDi running 1.1 Bar boost max.

Maybe I do need to log the temperature somehow.

 

[Snagger]

In the disengaged position, it’ll heat the oil much less than engaged.  Engaged in fifth would have less input torque than engaged in a lower gear, but would obviously be rotating faster, so I wouldn’t like to guess at whether it is generating more heat when engaged with the gear box in a higher or lower gear.  What is definitely true is that running engaged in a lower gear rather than disengaged in the next gear up is not good for the unit, either in terms of oil heating or input torque.  Fairey overdrive instructions specifically said not to engage in 1st or 2nd.  The Roverdrive is much tougher, but you are also putting a lot more torque through it with a Tdi than the Series vehicles could, and the engineering principles are the same.  
 

I would recommend you only use it as a gear splitter when necessary and generally try to use it as a sixth gear - that will put the least stress on it, both torque and thermal.

[Northwards]

I remember reading that section of the manual, about the OD lever being more convenient. My take on it was that this might certainly be true for the Canadian/LHD market, but I couldn’t really agree for the UK/RHD. Like you I have a raised cubby box, so getting to the OD lever is not a hassle, but it’s not as easy as changing the main box.

I have got the heat gauge, but I have to say I didn‘t fit it initially. I will do when I change the bearings in the unit.

I do use it as a 6th gear mainly, but have certainly dropped into main 4th for inclines etc. Might change that habit if the temp gauge and stickers read high.

[Retroanaconda]

I do the same, use it as a 6th but I do drop the main box into 4th rather than disengage the OD it slowing down for a short period, or on an incline. But I doubt my ancient 200Tdi is capable of overworking the thing!

Likewise the stuff about the OD lever being more convenient than the main gear-lever is nonsense for RHD vehicles. It’s a right stretch to reach down and use it.

I find it is no use as a gear splitter as the ratio change is too high, so you pretty much just end up in the gear above each time - i.e. 3rd + OD is more or less the same as 4th. 

[Peaklander]

Ha I didn't think about it being far more convenient for LHD. That explains it 

I made this little chart which confirms that once in 3rd, the OD matches 4th and then in 4th matches 5th...

 

Maybe I need to make a dog-leg operating lever and get it right over to the 'correct' side.

 

 

[reb78]

1 hour ago, Peaklander said:

Ha I didn't think about it being far more convenient for LHD. That explains it 

I made this little chart which confirms that once in 3rd, the OD matches 4th and then in 4th matches 5th...

 

Maybe I need to make a dog-leg operating lever and get it right over to the 'correct' side.

 

 

This is what I notice with my gkn. People talk about them as a splitter but they gear x+OD is so close to gear x+1 that it really isnt a splitter. 
 

Re the lever - this is where the GKN always wins! Just a flick of a button...

[Snagger]

Interesting.  It works well as a splitter on the LT76.  Evidently the ratio spread in that gear box is very different from 1st to4th on an LT77 or R380.

[Peaklander]

1 hour ago, reb78 said:

Re the lever - this is where the GKN always wins! Just a flick of a button...

You are sending me all nostalgic for the Triumph 2.5TC that I used to drive in my late teens. Switching out of OD was more fun than engaging. I think that would have been a Laycock unit. 

[reb78]

20 minutes ago, Peaklander said:

You are sending me all nostalgic for the Triumph 2.5TC that I used to drive in my late teens. Switching out of OD was more fun than engaging. I think that would have been a Laycock unit. 

Yup! Almost the same thing. Laycock design i believe. I think type J. Difference for the defender version is that drive comes in and out the same end.