RV8 engine mount position for a 1987 110

[Phill S]

A quick sanity check before the welding starts....

I'm fitting a 3.9 EFi in my '87 110. I gutted the R380 gearbox and LT230, they're going to get a going over, 277mm bell housing, and reassembled like so:

On 4/1/2022 at 8:52 AM, Phill S said:

 

 

I had previously chopped the mounting brackets out of the donor Disco 1:

 

Got those cleaned up ish, cut out the old 2.5 NA diesel mounts, located gearbox and tf box in their brackets, and suspended the engine at the front:

 

So, the question is, does this look like the right position to you? Mounting brackets not fully fettled for fitting, a bit of bending about to do etc, just a first pass at where they're going to end up....

 

And on the LHS:

 

Assuming the web that stretches across outboard does something useful I have tried to preserve that, but had to swap sides in this mockup or they fall short of the spring mounting.

Whaddaya reckon? Anybody have any pics of their installation would be helpful - haven't been able to find anything here except this one:

On 4/6/2015 at 7:45 PM, dangerous doug said:

 

 

But this only shows a limited view and I don't know what he's done about the web. Anybody have a pic of an original 3.5 factory bracket installation?

I've trawled through a lot of threads on V8 installation, but haven't been able to find anything. Please point me in the right direction if I've missed one that has these kind of shots in it. I'm obviously keen to get the brackets in the right place!

Thanks

Phill

[smallfry]

That position is wrong for a standard fit, so dont weld yet. Hang on, I will try and find a pic of where they should be

[smallfry]

Right. I had some really good photos of this, but they must have been on my old hard drive which went kaput, along with lots of other stuff.

I have just been up the garden to look at an old original chassis, but its buried under lots of carp, so I could only take the pics at arms length, but I think you can get the jist. 

First thing, you have your mounts on the wrong side, so they need to be swapped side for side (LH to RH etc.)

The fillet lines up with the REAR edge of the spring mount. 

All this assumes you are using standard V8 bellhousing to suit your particular gearbox. Engine should drop straight on.

On the pics, the one with the rubber mount still on is the RH (drivers side)

[Retroanaconda]

I can get you some photos of the V8 chassis in my workshop Phill but not until middle of next week.

[dangerous doug]

11 hours ago, Phill S said:

haven't been able to find anything here except this one:

 

But this only shows a limited view and I don't know what he's done about the web. Anybody have a pic of an original 3.5 factory bracket installation?

 

I diddnt fit the web. I thought it was a really nice trap for dirt and water to eventually put a hole in my chassis. I was going to go back and put a web in each side and box it in if it ever gave me problems but after 5 years of abuse with a set of captive engine mounts with very little bushing in them, I’ve had no problems. You’ll need to put an angle finder on your diff flanges and measure against the transfer box flanges to get your prob angles correct…..I diddnt and got lucky but a friends 90 usedto eat UJ because of this

[Phill S]

13 hours ago, smallfry said:

The fillet lines up with the REAR edge of the spring mount

Ok! Many thanks for those pics, Much appreciated. I'm assuming that's a standard factory fit you're showing? I swapped them right and left because otherwise the web on the RHS was sitting on top of the brake pipe, and with a heavy engine block poised above - that was a mishap I don't need. But what you've shown is what I'd been anticipating I'd be seeing.....

 

12 hours ago, Retroanaconda said:

I can get you some photos of the V8 chassis in my workshop Phill but not until middle of next week.

I guess it could be good to see a second set just for confirmation?

 

3 hours ago, dangerous doug said:

I diddnt fit the web. I thought it was a really nice trap for dirt and water to eventually put a hole in my chassis. I was going to go back and put a web in each side and box it in if it ever gave me problems but after 5 years of abuse with a set of captive engine mounts with very little bushing in them, I’ve had no problems. You’ll need to put an angle finder on your diff flanges and measure against the transfer box flanges to get your prob angles correct…..I diddnt and got lucky but a friends 90 usedto eat UJ because of this

Ok - thanks for this. I'd been fretting about the position in the vertical and had been thinking to adjust so that the engine sits level fore and aft. I'll return to that little conundrum once I can get this first issue sorted!

 

So what's gone wrong? The vehicle is a 1987 110. The TF box and gearbox brackets set the datum at the rear. The engine brackets need to sit as shown above. So the gearbox/bell housing aren't long enough? Probably in the order of an inch or so...

The gearbox is an R380 suffix L, and is an unused Syncro Transmissions recon unit that has been sitting about for a year or two. Naturally, the first thing I did with that was to take it apart to see what Syncro Transmissions think the term "recon" means. With the gearbox casing and what I believe is the right bell housing bolted up on the back of the engine, I can push the input shaft/pinion into the gearbox case and the pinion sits nicely (to my eye) in the back of the crankshaft, which has no bush in it as yet - the engine is a 3.9 from a Disco 1 with auto box.

I previously put up some pics of the bell housing I'm using here:

On 1/8/2022 at 5:10 PM, Phill S said:

Excellent - thanks. I picked up the bell housing I have via the "Rover V8 Engine Appreciation" Facebook page. Here's what I have - I haven't cleaned it yet. I assume the casting date is saying 1986 rather than the 1998 I'd prefer it to say?

The clutch parts in the last pic look re-useable, but I haven't yet investigated the other bits needed, or plastic bits that need to be replaced. Busy in the guts of the box just now...

 

Confused and bemused...

Edited April 30, 2022 by Phill S
Detail!

[Retroanaconda]

Which transfer box mounts are you using?

[Phill S]

Erm - the original 1987 ones. Tell me more!

And I should say I'm using the Disco 1 1.2 TF box...

Edited April 30, 2022 by Phill S

[Retroanaconda]

Assuming you want everything as per a factory V8 then you’ll need to use mounts that put the transfer box in the V8/300Tdi/Td5 position. If you use mounts for the 2.5NA/TD/200Tdi application then the whole thing will be two inches or so too far aft. Use the correct position and then standard V8/300Tdi/Td5 seatbox, floor plates, tunnel and props should all more or less fit.

There are two ways of getting the right positioning, either use the bolt-on V8 mounts from the parts book or use a 300Tdi crossmember with built in mounts. Just watch for exhaust clearance if doing the latter.

[Phill S]

Well I'm jiggered, that's going to be it then. I had somehow assumed they would be the same

So yes, I want it to be as per factory V8. I can imagine a whole bunch if issues if you stray away from that - looking to keep everything as standard as possible. 

I have more homework to do, but first thought is to go bolt-on mounts. Checking out the parts book now...

[Phill S]

2 hours ago, Retroanaconda said:

standard V8/300Tdi/Td5 seatbox, floor plates, tunnel and props should all more or less fit

Just to double check, the 300Tdi/TD5 seat box, floor plates, tunnel and bulkhead bell housing adapter plate should fit ok? Once engine and transmission correctly lined up of course..,.

[Retroanaconda]

I believe so yes. That was what I was planning on doing, and I was working on the assumption that an LT230 and R380 bolted up to a 300Tdi crossmember (the way I chose to go) would mean that the 300Tdi floor etc. would all fit fine and line up as it’s no different from a 300Tdi car. I had a pair of 300Tdi props that certainly fitted perfectly.

[smallfry]

Having done this conversion several times, I am a bit puzzled. However, I only ever did 4cyl to V8 using the LT77, LT85 or the ZF auto, but not the R380. Always used the 4cyl transfer box mounts and standard position V8 engine chassis mounts with no problem. So it must be to do with the R380and/or the bellhousing.

As far as I remember, the LT77 was shorter than the R380, but had a longer bellhousing. Overall they came up the same length. The V8 bellhousing to LT77 was smooth (no ribs) but always looked very long. To use this would make the gearbox input shaft too short. What is the overall length of the gearbox/bellhousing combo ?

What is that bellhousing off of ? I do not recognise it. 

Did they actually ever fit an R380 coupled to a V8 in a Defender or Disco 1 as standard ? I cant remember I thought the V8 in a Defender had been discontinued before the advent of the R380 except for special editions, which were all auto ISTR

As Retroanaconda says, the mounts must be different somehow ? Maybe Disco 2 V8 ones would get you sorted ? Got a Disco 2 but its a TD5. Also got a 4cyl 90, so I can go and have a look in the morning.

Do you still have the mountings from your donor Disco ? I would prefer to keep the transfer box in its standard position so that the propshafts and angles are all standard. I could live with the engine being a couple of inches back if needs be. When you used to convert a 4cyl to V8 using the 4cyl gearbox and an adaptor plate, the V8 was a lot further back than a "standard" V8 anyway, but of course, this then needed a non standard exhaust.

Never easy, is it ?

FridgeFreezer has a V8 ambulance fitted an R380, maybe he could shed some light ?  

[Bowie69]

Disco R380 are longer than defender, no?

[dangerous doug]

Just to add more confusion…..my transfer box mounts are 200tdi

also, that’s not a disco r380/V8 bellhousing you have. It may be an lt77 one or a 2wd r380. The disco one doesn’t have the 2 ribs on the top and I believe that there is a slight difference in length. 
 

 

it doesn’t really matter, aslong as they bolt together, work and the shifter is in the same place then the engine falls where it falls. Don’t worry about originality because your putting a v8 into something that never had a v8. If it works it works

 

[Quagmire]

This is what I had when I converted to v8 (from 2.25 petrol) back in 2008, I bolted a bare block up to the "long stick" v8 lt77 transmission, got it into the car and sat on the gearbox mounts and then tacked the engine mounts in position. All good, happy days!

Everything worked fine, but when I did my chassis swap a few years ago the engine mounts didn't line up! I ended up extending the mounts bolted to the block with 6mm plate so that it would sit properly on the chassis mounts. This is all down to the gearbox mounts being different I believe?

I had used the orignal 2.25 petrol ones in the conversion, when the issue with the new chassis came up I looked at proper V8 ones at the time but they were hella expensive...

[Phill S]

Ok - I'm doing this for the first time, there's a mass of experience talked about here, and maybe this is an opportunity to get the whole thing nailed down not just for my project, but there will be plenty of others trying to figure out the same thing as time goes by....

Off to my workshop shortly and I will take measurements and pics and write up what I have later this afternoon - somehow I had thought this part of the conversion was going to be the easy bit!

[Retroanaconda]

There were plenty of V8 discos with R380s.

The V8 bellhousing for R380 are shorter than the very similar looking ones for the LT77 by about an inch. They will bolt up both ends but the input shaft ends up hanging in mid air.

If Phill’s bellhousing puts the input shaft properly into the back of the crank then it is the right one. The one I modified that came with the box is the right length, so it could be checked against that.

When I get home on Tuesday I can take some measurements from the V8 chassis in my workshop, but here are two poor photos showing the engine mount position.

 
 

[dangerous doug]

5 hours ago, Retroanaconda said:

There were plenty of V8 discos with R380s.

 

Very aware of that, what I’m saying is I don’t think that’s a 4wd r380 from a disco. 
 

this is, it doesn’t have the 2 ribs at the top

[Retroanaconda]

The R380 in Phill’s photos is a late Defender Td5 box that was rebuilt to V8 spec.

There we’re numerous bellhousings over the years, for example P38 ones look quite different to disco ones. As long as the dimensions are correct it will make no difference. He can check it against the one that came with the box, which looked the same as your picture - except for the chunk I cut out of it of course.

Here it is in my chassis. As long as Phill’s new one is the same length it’ll be fine.

[smallfry]

4 hours ago, dangerous doug said:

Very aware of that, what I’m saying is I don’t think that’s a 4wd r380 from a disco. 
 

this is, it doesn’t have the 2 ribs at the top

These are the bellhousings I remember, not the one Phil has got. I dont recognise that at all, and it looks shorter to me, but as said.as long as the input shaft is the right length it would be fine.

I know that Disco 2s (with the Thor engine) were fitted with R380s, but were Disco 1 V8s fitted with R380s ? I dont remember seeing one, only LT77s

I have been and looked at the TD5 Disco 2, and the transfer box to chassis mounts are a completely different arrangement, and I would assume the V8 variant uses the same setup.

[Phill S]

20 hours ago, Retroanaconda said:

There were plenty of V8 discos with R380s.

The V8 bellhousing for R380 are shorter than the very similar looking ones for the LT77 by about an inch. They will bolt up both ends but the input shaft ends up hanging in mid air.

If Phill’s bellhousing puts the input shaft properly into the back of the crank then it is the right one. The one I modified that came with the box is the right length, so it could be checked against that.

When I get home on Tuesday I can take some measurements from the V8 chassis in my workshop, but here are two poor photos showing the engine mount position.

 
 

 

Wew - nice work. Crackin looking chassis. So I think we can settle on the correct position of the chassis engine mounts now - and also the problem of their position in the vertical?

On 4/30/2022 at 5:22 AM, dangerous doug said:

put an angle finder on your diff flanges and measure against the transfer box flanges to get your prob angles correct…..I diddnt and got lucky but a friends 90 usedto eat UJ because of this

 

So the suspect in that case is the TF/gearbox mounts? It would be good to know how to get it wrong as well as how to get it right...

 

More work to do in fettling up my brackets - they're propped up on a bit of wood and not sitting quite correctly yet, and I'll want to get my engine and boxes back in as before to check, but in a slightly rough and ready way they are going to sit like this:

 

But no welding until the back end brackets are sorted out. I had in my simple mind believed I'd be able to use my original 1987 2.5 NA mounts...

 

Here's the TF box mount alongside the one from my Disco 1 donor for comparison:

 

Which looks pretty much like the distance by which I was out at my first offering up. Now, with a little trimming and welding I could maybe get that to bolt up correctly?

 

No slot though, just a hole...

I don't have anything for the LHS gearbox mount, that went when I sold the auto box from the donor Disco (duuh), but this came with the R380 I bought:

 

Which I think is a close relation to item 9 shown here

On 4/30/2022 at 3:53 PM, Retroanaconda said:

bolt-on V8 mounts from the parts book

 

I have more investigations to do on the gearbox/TF box mounts to do, but the one shown here looks promising:

15 hours ago, dangerous doug said:

 

 

That looks like it has the right sort of forward offset? What is that?

 

Bellhousing:

 

Ribs all over the place. Looked convincing when the nice man who sold it to me said it was just what I needed. You might be able to see the casting is marked HRC2773. Now, I've no idea what vehicle it's from, but I know of a man who I'm sure does...

 

On 11/4/2019 at 11:06 AM, FridgeFreezer said:

Just been through some old photos of the rebuild, mine's got HRC2773 on it, didn't even have to visit the shed

 

And finally, for now, the input shaft from the R380 I'm using:

 

Bolting the front end of the gearbox case to the bell housing and then bolting that to the engine with crankshaft in place but no flywheel, I stuck a bit of masking tape around the pinion and pushed it through into place. You can then get your hand in where the dust cover fits and mark around to see how far it's gone in:

 

Yeah it's a bit wonky, but it's about right. I should also say no bush in the crankshaft or the tape won't go in. From the big box of bits just arrived from Turner Engineering I have a new bush ready to fit:

 

Yeah, that's going to work. Isn't it?

 

Ok - back to my hunt for my dream TF/gearbox mounts...

[Retroanaconda]

That looks good Phill - your offset gearbox mount from the Disco looks correct. You just need to sort the pair out for other side and then you’ll be able to drop the whole lot in and see where your engine mounts end up - hopefully just where you’ve planned them.

13 hours ago, smallfry said:

I know that Disco 2s (with the Thor engine) were fitted with R380s, but were Disco 1 V8s fitted with R380s ? I dont remember seeing one, only LT77s

Disco 1 V8s from 1994 to 1998 would have used the R380 same as the 300Tdi ones did.

[Phill S]

6 hours ago, Retroanaconda said:

That looks good Phill - your offset gearbox mount from the Disco looks correct. You just need to sort the pair out for other side and then you’ll be able to drop the whole lot in and see where your engine mounts end up - hopefully just where you’ve planned them.

Thanks for that - at least I'm on the right track now.

Just to understand the other option, the 300TDi cross member, I think that's ANR3713? I liberated a pic of one from eBay:

 

Am I right in thinking that if I were to go that route I would have a whole lot more holes to drill through my chassis? Looks tough though

[Bowie69]

The RRC crossmember may be better for you, it has humps in it either side to allow for the exhaust to tuck up out of the way.

Photo stolen from Rovers North: