Phill S Posted July 1, 2022 Share Posted July 1, 2022 I'm sure I'll have a number of questions on this, but I'll start up the back. I dropped the fuel tanks for inspection, also chassis cleaning and painting. The side tank looks fine but the rear tank is starting to go at the seams... Looks better in this pic than in real life - fair amount of corrosion going on in there. Or am I worrying unnecessarily? Maybe they just look like that. No sign of leaking, would probably last a few years yet. To feed the V8 EFi, I'm going to need a lift pump and a high pressure pump, straightforward enough on those but money to be spent... Now, from the Donor Disco 1 I have this: And I can confirm the Disco tank will not go into my 110. Even if I push very hard. I believe there is a plastic tank that will fit into my truck and accept the pump/sender shown above - anybody able to advise what that is? Money to be spent, but maybe a better long-term solution? So I'm currently anguishing over whether to stick with the standard metal tank with suitable pumps, or go plastic now and fit the Disco pump. Any downsides on this option? What would you do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted July 1, 2022 Share Posted July 1, 2022 TD5 defender tank... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phill S Posted July 2, 2022 Author Share Posted July 2, 2022 12 hours ago, Bowie69 said: TD5 defender tank Ok thanks. So that leads me here: So I'll just take some time to digest that little lot... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous doug Posted July 2, 2022 Share Posted July 2, 2022 A 3.9 efi rangerover fuel pump bolts straight into a 200tdi steel fuel tank. No need for lift pump 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phill S Posted July 2, 2022 Author Share Posted July 2, 2022 Thanks for that Doug - useful information. I believe the Range Rover fuel pump is the same as the 3.9 Disco 1 pump shown above? Sadly that's not going to bolt into my 2.5NA tank.... So having read the thread I referenced above, I'm putting the TD5 plastic tank into the more than I want to do at this stage category. I'll patch up the tank I have and keep an eye on it for leaks, and think about it again at that point. Living in a coastal area there's always a lot of salt around. Vehicles rot fast down here. So next step in my thinking is about fuel pumps. I understand in keeping my original tank I'll need a lift pump and a fuel injection pressure pump. My first venture into petrol fuel injection so haven't got a clue. What sort of spec do I need for the injection pump in terms of delivery pressure and flow rate? I don't know how manufacturers specify pumps, but I would imagine that delivery rate drops with pressure for a given pump? I'd be interested to know what people have been using, makes and models... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous doug Posted July 2, 2022 Share Posted July 2, 2022 It’s not the same, you want pn: PRC8318P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted July 2, 2022 Share Posted July 2, 2022 There's two, the earlier steel tank is as Doug says above, the later plastic tank is as you have there. So you have two options.... under seat tank or rear mount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phill S Posted July 2, 2022 Author Share Posted July 2, 2022 Well I'm jiggered - that'll teach me to think I know what I'm talking about. Here's my main tank: 5 hours ago, dangerous doug said: you want pn: PRC8318P Thanks for the part number - you're a gent sir. And that's just going to go in the top there? So would it be Bearmach, Britpart or Allmakes? We're in the £30-£35 range so ... 4 hours ago, Bowie69 said: you have two options.... under seat tank or rear mount I have rear and side tanks, so being unexpectedly affordable I'm not sure whether to put one in each tank? Obv I would then need electrical valves to control the return flow. Or better to have a pump only in the rear tank only and use the side tank to transfer fuel into the main when needed? That would be simpler and what I'd planned originally. Apparently I have to go out now, so will look into PRC8318 more deeply later. Many thanks for your help guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous doug Posted July 2, 2022 Share Posted July 2, 2022 Get the best one available, I have a britpart steel tank fitted(before I learned how bad they are) and it’s been ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous doug Posted July 2, 2022 Share Posted July 2, 2022 3 hours ago, Phill S said: Well I'm jiggered - that'll teach me to think I know what I'm talking about. Here's my main tank: Thanks for the part number - you're a gent sir. And that's just going to go in the top there? So would it be Bearmach, Britpart or Allmakes? We're in the £30-£35 range so ... I have rear and side tanks, so being unexpectedly affordable I'm not sure whether to put one in each tank? Obv I would then need electrical valves to control the return flow. Or better to have a pump only in the rear tank only and use the side tank to transfer fuel into the main when needed? That would be simpler and what I'd planned originally. Apparently I have to go out now, so will look into PRC8318 more deeply later. Many thanks for your help guys I’ve sat down now so can reply properly, the rrc efi pump is rated to 120psi(from memory) I’m not 100% sure on the flow rate but I’ve not had starvation issues running my v8 with the Thor injectors at 52psi. If you get a decent fuel pressure regulator you’ll be able to see what’s what. I have a turbo smart one with a gauge and it keeps the fuel pressure steady. When you come to fitting fuel lines, avoid the eBay stainless braided lines. I have it front to back and it is not fit for purpose, the ends perish and mud gets trapped in the braid, it erodes, so you end up with a line of barbed wire running down the chassis rail. Speak to llama4x4. David seems to think he has a better braided line available that won’t have the aforementioned problems but when it comes time to rebuild I’ll be using hard line. There is also a company called MED engineering who have a soft braid with a steel core available, I had this fitted to my mini and was very impressed with it. Can’t say where that came from though…it’s just what they ordered in. Hth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phill S Posted July 2, 2022 Author Share Posted July 2, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, dangerous doug said: Get the best one available Ok - I'll shelve the tank replacement plans for the time being and give the one I have some tlc to keep it going for the time being. Give my bank account a chance to recover... So on the PRC8318 pump front I find pics that look like this: Looks feasible when I look at the tank. Crazy money for an original Land Rover one but Bearmach, Britpart or Allmakes in the £30-£35 range. I generally try to avoid anything by any of them, but haven't been able to turn up any alternatives. Any experience on those? Maybe it's just the same factory churning them out in China and then they get rebadged 40 minutes ago, dangerous doug said: I’ve sat down now so can reply properly, the rrc efi pump is rated to 120psi(from memory) I’m not 100% sure on the flow rate but I’ve not had starvation issues running my v8 with the Thor injectors at 52psi. If you get a decent fuel pressure regulator you’ll be able to see what’s what. I have a turbo smart one with a gauge and it keeps the fuel pressure steady. That sounds good... 40 minutes ago, dangerous doug said: When you come to fitting fuel lines... Exactly where I was going next. And couplings. I'll do a little more homework on what you say before talking to the llama folks. So I can try to appear like I know what I'm talking about, but thanks for the tip on the eBay specials, I'll look at those to see what they look like. Again, thanks Doug - this is really helpful... Edited July 2, 2022 by Phill S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallfry Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 I always used the PRC8318 pump too (early RRC 3.5 EFI) and a decent inline metal cased filter. Never had any running problems that I can recall. You can alter it for tank depth by shortening or lengthening the drop bracket and hose if required. There IS a similar looking one, but that is low pressure for carburettor engines, in 90/110s which is obviously no use to you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 Tins my 5.2 at 60 psi in the rail for the big injectors absolutely fine whizzy fuel pumps can often just be a big issue with rover v8s the classic pump is more than good enough 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 I had an unknown brand of in-tank EFI pump die, admittedly after about 30,000 miles and a lot of time parked up doing nothing, got a (I think) Nige-supplied Bearmach one in there now so we'll see how that fares. Running a 4.6 no problem at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phill S Posted July 5, 2022 Author Share Posted July 5, 2022 9 hours ago, Hybrid_From_Hell said: Tins my 5.2 at 60 psi in the rail for the big injectors absolutely fine whizzy fuel pumps can often just be a big issue with rover v8s the classic pump is more than good enough Ok - thanks for that, I'll be going with a PRC8318 for sure then. 12 hours ago, smallfry said: I always used the PRC8318 pump too (early RRC 3.5 EFI) and a decent inline metal cased filter. Never had any running problems that I can recall. You can alter it for tank depth by shortening or lengthening the drop bracket and hose if required. There IS a similar looking one, but that is low pressure for carburettor engines, in 90/110s which is obviously no use to you. Great - I have that little lot in the mix - thanks 9 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said: I had an unknown brand of in-tank EFI pump die, admittedly after about 30,000 miles and a lot of time parked up doing nothing, got a (I think) Nige-supplied Bearmach one in there now so we'll see how that fares. Running a 4.6 no problem at all. As above - thanks. Something inside me is squirming though at the mention of Bearmach. I'll go and find a bullet to bite.... So (possibly?) my last question on pumps. I have a twin tank system, mechanically operated. Main tank and side tank under the drivers seat The taps always weeped a little in the original diesel config, and just a little concerned about use of that with the upcoming switch to petrol. And E10 at that. Now, with these pumps at around £30 each (ex vat and delivery) I could put one in each tank with electrically managed valves to look after the return flow. I'd rather not have those valves though - I do try to keep things as simple as possible and there's another thing to go wrong/leak. The thought occurs to fit a PRC8318 pump in each tank, main tank to filter to injector rail. And then reserve tank to to transfer its contents to the main tank when needed. I could even switch it off automatically when the low fuel light comes on on that tank. I have to have a pump for the reserve tank anyway and these PRC8318 's are cheaper than most low pressure pumps I've looked at. Plus if the pump in the main tank dies when I'm far from home I'm carrying a spare in the reserve tank and can do a roadside swap. Finally the question! Is a PRC8318 happy to pump in this way, when it's not delivering at pressure. Or is that going to kill it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallfry Posted July 5, 2022 Share Posted July 5, 2022 Pumping fuel from the reserve to the main tank seems to me a simpler and more reliable solution for the EFI system IMO What normally kills rotary pumps is running them dry. Who knows ? I think it will be OK, especially if you can have it turn off via the low fuel warning. As its not running permanently, and as you say, it WOULD be handy to have a spare on board. You could also use an inline facet pump to do this, with a dip tube and flange fitted to the tank, again, earlier Defenders have them. AND, unlike the Genuine, Bearmach, Britpart options, there is someone at Facet stupid questions department/technical who can answer the question about which model would be suitable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted July 5, 2022 Share Posted July 5, 2022 4 hours ago, Phill S said: The thought occurs to fit a PRC8318 pump in each tank, main tank to filter to injector rail. And then reserve tank to to transfer its contents to the main tank when needed. I could even switch it off automatically when the low fuel light comes on on that tank. I have to have a pump for the reserve tank anyway and these PRC8318 's are cheaper than most low pressure pumps I've looked at. Plus if the pump in the main tank dies when I'm far from home I'm carrying a spare in the reserve tank and can do a roadside swap. I quite like that idea, as you say it's cheap and simple and means you're carrying a backup pump. I might put a restrictor in the outlet to give the backup pump a little back-pressure, I don't know if they enjoy pumping at full flow / zero pressure... could just be me being paranoid. As smallfry says, they really hate being run dry. Just to be aware - if you have to extend the pump for your backup tank, you need special fuel hose as regular fuel hose is only fuel-proof on the inside, it will disintegrate if put inside a tank full of fuel. Ask @steve200TDi how we know that one 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted July 5, 2022 Share Posted July 5, 2022 13 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said: As smallfry says, they really hate being run dry. Given the pump current would fall when it empties the tank (moving air is way easier than petrol), it would not be hard to design a little current-sensing warning lamp to tell you when it is empty/running dry. @FridgeFreezer could probably design you something 😛 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted July 5, 2022 Share Posted July 5, 2022 I reckon a relay connected to the fuel warning light is as elegant a solution as you're going to get! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted July 5, 2022 Share Posted July 5, 2022 That's assuming it has one, and a gauge attached.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted July 5, 2022 Share Posted July 5, 2022 Float switch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phill S Posted July 6, 2022 Author Share Posted July 6, 2022 (edited) The side tank definitely has a sender for a low level warning light. There was a relay that switched the fuel level signal to the gauge and another for the low level light when you operated the mechanical tank selection lever. Past tense because I've ripped all the wiring out. For one I'm going 12 volt, and for two the fuel gauge/light never worked even though I could hear the relays clicking. The wiring was in an appalling state. Further investigations when I strip the tanks down for scrubbing out and renewing the rubber seals. Then I can check out the senders and see what's what. Back to the tank, what's that blanked off pipe for - just ahead of the filler pipe? Any reason I can't use that to receive fuel pumped from the side tank into main? Just to save you scrolling back up: On 7/2/2022 at 2:34 PM, Phill S said: 14 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said: I reckon a relay connected to the fuel warning light is as elegant a solution as you're going to get! Nah. The truck will also be used by the loved one for her own expeditions with her crazy mates. It needs to be idiot proof so there can't be any question that she could activate the transfer system when there's not enough space in the main tank. When I say idiot proof I mean idiot proof. Not my final decision, but it's currently shaping up as 3 modes of operation on a switch. And a big red light that shows that the fuel transfer pump is operating. Or at least has power being supplied to it. 1. Off. System disabled 2. Manual. Driver/operator switches the transfer pump on, pump (and big red light) switches off when it sees low fuel level signal in the side tank 3. Auto. System switches on (and locks on) when it sees a low level signal from the main tank. Otherwise the same as 2. Might sound over-complicated but it's only a few relays and a bit of wire. Of course it relies on the integrity of the low fuel level signals and it is safety critical - don't want to be driving along spilling petrol out of the filler because it's gone wrong and is overfilling/pressurising the main tank. Hence the big red light, And I'd probably want a second fuel gauge and low level light for the side tank to monitor what's going on. In engineering terms it's a simplex system with safety implications - it needs to be monitored when in operation. I've also assumed that when pumping fuel into the main tank the displaced air can get out at the same rate... One of the reasons I was interested in pump flow rate was to get a handle on how long it would take to transfer the contents of the side tank into the main tank. Anybody have any numbers on that? Final solution pending, but I'm sure somebody will have done all this before? Then again, maybe simpler to implement as two separately pumped tanks with eclectically operated valves to control the fuel supply and return. Dunno Edited July 6, 2022 by Phill S Detail! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted July 6, 2022 Share Posted July 6, 2022 1 hour ago, Phill S said: One of the reasons I was interested in pump flow rate was to get a handle on how long it would take to transfer the contents of the side tank into the main tank. Anybody have any numbers on that? The standard universal Bosch/Walbro-type pumps that were everywhere were always quoted as 255lph, perhaps take that with a pinch of salt but with no pressure/restriction I'd suggest an average EFI pump can hoof quite a lot of fuel out in short order. As for overflowing the tank, can you plumb the return lines / breathers in such a way that they all find their own level? If you can get a fuel level sender you trust & is reasonably accurate it's easy enough to knock up a circuit to manage the pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phill S Posted July 6, 2022 Author Share Posted July 6, 2022 35 minutes ago, FridgeFreezer said: Bosch/Walbro-type pumps that were everywhere were always quoted as 255lph, Cool. So if we use 200lph and the side tank is 50l that would take 15 minutes to transfer - sounds about right. Anyway, I'll get all the senders and pipework off of the tanks and get a camera inside to check out, and report back on which way I go and how it works out. More questions on the pipework & plumbing looming... Thanks all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phill S Posted July 12, 2022 Author Share Posted July 12, 2022 Tanks all dismantled and I find both of the senders are u/s. Also cork seals - not sure what E10 is going to do to those. A quick look inside the main tank.... Between other jobs I put a couple of pounds of clean nuts and bolts in there and a couple of litres of old petrol from the donor Disco and strung it up But couldn't really get it moving enough to get a good old slosh going. Somebody has done this before - tips and tricks welcome! I find people on YouTube talking about filling it up with white vinegar and leaving for a week - anybody tried that? Never had much success with vinegar in the past.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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