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Diff carrier flange break crown gear spacers


Gazzar

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I've only recently understood why you need to fit a spacer to a series rover diff when swapping to coiler crown gears.

 

How much of a bodge is this? Assuming torqued properly, appropriate bolts and high strength Loctite.

 

Any horror stories of them coming loose going around a bend in the middle of nowhere?

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Yes, yes, @Bowie69 you are right.  I'm practicing thinking slowly at the moment.

I'm sure there was something you had to do to series carriers with a spacer, though. 

I'm asking because it's proving difficult to find a Salisbury LSD/ATB for the 109. And I am tempted to fit the defender version with a spacer. 

There are horror stories out there, but involving high performance vehicles in the USA, so I was wondering if there is real world Landrover experience of spacers.

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Ah, good, as I have a spacer to put a 4.7 crown wheel on a ARB carrier, from a 3.54 coiler, if that makes sense, thought I had made a mistake :) Not built it or run it yet, but I am, like you, half tempted to  get a 'proper' CW&P rather than use the spacer, but I just don't know.

Ashcroft do a 4.75 set of heavy duty gears which fit a coiler centre, it may be worth asking them if they do a Salisbury version?

 

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I think I need to think this through. If I've a defender carrier (ATB) and defender crown and pinion, that should work, right? The offsets should work overall.

I'd have to swap the front as well, then. For which I've a truetrac already.

 

Why wouldn't that work for the 101? Aside from the gearing change.

Update:

Oh. No Salisbury option listed. I'll ask.

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I wonder if it's a materials / machining issue with some spacers - I can well imagine the spacer needs to be accurately machined & of good quality material made to the same spec as the crown wheel not just a random lump of mild steel someone's whittled in their lathe.

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Yes, if it's the same tensile steel (ish) and proper bolts to the correct torque I wonder how it could be different from a clutch?

 

I saw some comments by Ian Ashcroft ages ago to do with using the correct grade of bolt, 8.8 bring more forgiving of incorrect torque than 12.9. 

Is this a scenario where lock wiring the bolt heads would make sense?

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It’s not a bodge if it is done with accurately made parts of decent materials quality.  Ashcroft sell the spacer rings for Rover diffs (I used one on my 4.1 ATB assembly).  As said, you just need decent quality and grade longer bolts.

With Salisbury diffs and gears being much bigger and stiffer than Rover types, and already less likely to flex under load, then they should be less sensitive to problems.  I still haven’t found any measurements to compare to those I put up on the other thread for my 4.1 Dana set.  As far as I can tell, those dimensions, at least the pinion centreline to ring gear mating face, match the 3.54 sets of the Salisbury, and as far as I could determine, there is only one other offset which includes the 4.71 and the 101’ ratio.  Now, I suspect that is the same on the Dana60, and that the spacer ring kit I screen shot the other day would do for both of us (your 101 and my 109 if I kept the 4.71s), but I really don’t know.  That kit was listed as out of stock, but all you need is the thickness that was listed and a pattern or set of measurements to give an engineering shop.  But if someone could measure that offset on the three Land Rover ratios, or measure the the lateral distance on the diff centre from flange to outer edge of the main bearing seat of a 109 and 101 diff (I can measure on my Ashcroft Sals ATB centre, made for 3.51) and we can then determine for certain the space ring thickness. 

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I'm hoping to get the axle off the 101 in the next few weeks, shoulder permitting, then I'll have that measurement. 

 

On a whim, I've bought a spacer. It was cheap.  Between the lot we should figure it out. If it looks viable I'll probably get an ashcroft ATB for the 109, and see if there's clearance for the half shaft of the 101 in the casing, and enough metal to allow the side gear to be EDMed for the 101 splines.

 

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Since they make their own gears and half shafts, Ashcroft might be able to make an ATB with the correct splines for you.  Has to be worth a call or a PM to Dave.

Where did you find the spacer?  Is it 4mm like the 0.155-0.165” one in that ad?  Should be simple to find bolts to suit.

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New old stock on eBay. The "joy" of insomnia.

I'm fairly sure it's right. Not labelled as for Salisbury, rather for Dana Spicer, but the dimensions check out. And it has the same number as similar spacers for the Dana 60.

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Could you send me the details of where you found it?  The only hit I got when I did a search was that cheap one at a suspicious 0.155-0.165”, and that was out of stock anyway.

The table you found shows the Dana flange offset at 2.225” for the 3.54 (4.3 and lower) ratio type, which is what the late Salisbury ought to match, and 2.420” for the higher ratios like 4.71. That gives a 0.195” variation (4.95mm).

I measured the Ashcroft Salisbury axle ATB as 2.24”, close to the 2.225 but not the same (though it was only an approximate measurement with the diff sitting on its plastic wrapper x that 0.015” is 0.3mm, so likely the plastic thickness).0AD449E0-DB5B-4E7C-A32D-BCF1411397E4.thumb.png.5380763645cb4ae04a39da9d17fe2eb5.png

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We'll see, it's a bit of a gamble. 

 

Do you have the Salisbury ashcroft ATB to hand? I'd appreciate a photo and some dimensions of the side gear and surrounding casing.

I'm curious to see if the 101 half shaft could be accommodated by the side gears.

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Done.  You will be disappointed by the internal diameter of the side bearing stubs - you’d have to open them out for the shafts like the side gears - they appear to be quite close to the 110 shafts.

I was surprised by the ring gear bolt hole diameters - the bolts on Salisbury are 12mm and 1/2” for Dana, so seeing close to 13.5mm was unexpected.

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That's really great, thank you!

That stub IS interesting. I wonder is that spiral for lubrication?

And the thickness of the wall!

The bearing for the stub is common to all, and the series/101 carrier is the same part number so this must be a Dave ashcroft innovation to add lubrication and strength. I wonder how thick the side gears are?

There's a lot of side machining face on the casing to self center the crown gear, I wonder is that enough with a spacer fitted?

And the bolt hole diameters, that would imply that they and not used to center the crown wheel.

Fascinating, thanks again.

 

 

Screenshot_2023-01-15-09-38-43-243-edit_com.android.chrome.jpg

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