Gazzar Posted January 13, 2023 Share Posted January 13, 2023 I've only recently understood why you need to fit a spacer to a series rover diff when swapping to coiler crown gears. How much of a bodge is this? Assuming torqued properly, appropriate bolts and high strength Loctite. Any horror stories of them coming loose going around a bend in the middle of nowhere? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted January 13, 2023 Share Posted January 13, 2023 I could be wrong, isn't it the other way, when putting 4.7s on a 3.54 carrier? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellaghost Posted January 13, 2023 Share Posted January 13, 2023 I think @Bowie69 may be right, I would need to check my diffs later However I have ran diffs with the spacer ring in with no problems, I seem to think I did fit slightly longer bolts though Regards Stephen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted January 13, 2023 Author Share Posted January 13, 2023 Yes, yes, @Bowie69 you are right. I'm practicing thinking slowly at the moment. I'm sure there was something you had to do to series carriers with a spacer, though. I'm asking because it's proving difficult to find a Salisbury LSD/ATB for the 109. And I am tempted to fit the defender version with a spacer. There are horror stories out there, but involving high performance vehicles in the USA, so I was wondering if there is real world Landrover experience of spacers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted January 13, 2023 Share Posted January 13, 2023 Ah, good, as I have a spacer to put a 4.7 crown wheel on a ARB carrier, from a 3.54 coiler, if that makes sense, thought I had made a mistake Not built it or run it yet, but I am, like you, half tempted to get a 'proper' CW&P rather than use the spacer, but I just don't know. Ashcroft do a 4.75 set of heavy duty gears which fit a coiler centre, it may be worth asking them if they do a Salisbury version? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted January 13, 2023 Author Share Posted January 13, 2023 I think I need to think this through. If I've a defender carrier (ATB) and defender crown and pinion, that should work, right? The offsets should work overall. I'd have to swap the front as well, then. For which I've a truetrac already. Why wouldn't that work for the 101? Aside from the gearing change. Update: Oh. No Salisbury option listed. I'll ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 13, 2023 Share Posted January 13, 2023 I wonder if it's a materials / machining issue with some spacers - I can well imagine the spacer needs to be accurately machined & of good quality material made to the same spec as the crown wheel not just a random lump of mild steel someone's whittled in their lathe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted January 13, 2023 Author Share Posted January 13, 2023 Yes, if it's the same tensile steel (ish) and proper bolts to the correct torque I wonder how it could be different from a clutch? I saw some comments by Ian Ashcroft ages ago to do with using the correct grade of bolt, 8.8 bring more forgiving of incorrect torque than 12.9. Is this a scenario where lock wiring the bolt heads would make sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted January 13, 2023 Share Posted January 13, 2023 The one I have hear from Ashcroft looks like a piece of laser cut plate, quite smooth, definitely not lathed out I would say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted January 13, 2023 Author Share Posted January 13, 2023 Presuming that's consistent in thickness, and there are no centering issues I can't see a problem. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted January 13, 2023 Author Share Posted January 13, 2023 No Salisbury crown and pinion to be had from Dave, but makes sense as they are much tougher than the Rover versions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landroversforever Posted January 13, 2023 Share Posted January 13, 2023 1 hour ago, Bowie69 said: The one I have hear from Ashcroft looks like a piece of laser cut plate, quite smooth, definitely not lathed out I would say. 'lathed' wash your mouth out Turned 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted January 13, 2023 Author Share Posted January 13, 2023 Ashcrofted? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted January 13, 2023 Share Posted January 13, 2023 9 minutes ago, landroversforever said: 'lathed' wash your mouth out Turned Was said with tongue firmly in cheek 😛 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted January 13, 2023 Share Posted January 13, 2023 It’s not a bodge if it is done with accurately made parts of decent materials quality. Ashcroft sell the spacer rings for Rover diffs (I used one on my 4.1 ATB assembly). As said, you just need decent quality and grade longer bolts. With Salisbury diffs and gears being much bigger and stiffer than Rover types, and already less likely to flex under load, then they should be less sensitive to problems. I still haven’t found any measurements to compare to those I put up on the other thread for my 4.1 Dana set. As far as I can tell, those dimensions, at least the pinion centreline to ring gear mating face, match the 3.54 sets of the Salisbury, and as far as I could determine, there is only one other offset which includes the 4.71 and the 101’ ratio. Now, I suspect that is the same on the Dana60, and that the spacer ring kit I screen shot the other day would do for both of us (your 101 and my 109 if I kept the 4.71s), but I really don’t know. That kit was listed as out of stock, but all you need is the thickness that was listed and a pattern or set of measurements to give an engineering shop. But if someone could measure that offset on the three Land Rover ratios, or measure the the lateral distance on the diff centre from flange to outer edge of the main bearing seat of a 109 and 101 diff (I can measure on my Ashcroft Sals ATB centre, made for 3.51) and we can then determine for certain the space ring thickness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted January 13, 2023 Author Share Posted January 13, 2023 I'm hoping to get the axle off the 101 in the next few weeks, shoulder permitting, then I'll have that measurement. On a whim, I've bought a spacer. It was cheap. Between the lot we should figure it out. If it looks viable I'll probably get an ashcroft ATB for the 109, and see if there's clearance for the half shaft of the 101 in the casing, and enough metal to allow the side gear to be EDMed for the 101 splines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted January 13, 2023 Share Posted January 13, 2023 Since they make their own gears and half shafts, Ashcroft might be able to make an ATB with the correct splines for you. Has to be worth a call or a PM to Dave. Where did you find the spacer? Is it 4mm like the 0.155-0.165” one in that ad? Should be simple to find bolts to suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted January 13, 2023 Author Share Posted January 13, 2023 New old stock on eBay. The "joy" of insomnia. I'm fairly sure it's right. Not labelled as for Salisbury, rather for Dana Spicer, but the dimensions check out. And it has the same number as similar spacers for the Dana 60. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted January 14, 2023 Share Posted January 14, 2023 Could you send me the details of where you found it? The only hit I got when I did a search was that cheap one at a suspicious 0.155-0.165”, and that was out of stock anyway. The table you found shows the Dana flange offset at 2.225” for the 3.54 (4.3 and lower) ratio type, which is what the late Salisbury ought to match, and 2.420” for the higher ratios like 4.71. That gives a 0.195” variation (4.95mm). I measured the Ashcroft Salisbury axle ATB as 2.24”, close to the 2.225 but not the same (though it was only an approximate measurement with the diff sitting on its plastic wrapper x that 0.015” is 0.3mm, so likely the plastic thickness). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted January 14, 2023 Author Share Posted January 14, 2023 This is the detail, none left. The 904 reference appears in a lot of other listings/ websites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted January 14, 2023 Share Posted January 14, 2023 That should work well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted January 14, 2023 Author Share Posted January 14, 2023 We'll see, it's a bit of a gamble. Do you have the Salisbury ashcroft ATB to hand? I'd appreciate a photo and some dimensions of the side gear and surrounding casing. I'm curious to see if the 101 half shaft could be accommodated by the side gears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted January 15, 2023 Share Posted January 15, 2023 I’ll take some pictures today. Want the internal diameter of the bearing stubs? What else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagger Posted January 15, 2023 Share Posted January 15, 2023 Done. You will be disappointed by the internal diameter of the side bearing stubs - you’d have to open them out for the shafts like the side gears - they appear to be quite close to the 110 shafts. I was surprised by the ring gear bolt hole diameters - the bolts on Salisbury are 12mm and 1/2” for Dana, so seeing close to 13.5mm was unexpected. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazzar Posted January 15, 2023 Author Share Posted January 15, 2023 That's really great, thank you! That stub IS interesting. I wonder is that spiral for lubrication? And the thickness of the wall! The bearing for the stub is common to all, and the series/101 carrier is the same part number so this must be a Dave ashcroft innovation to add lubrication and strength. I wonder how thick the side gears are? There's a lot of side machining face on the casing to self center the crown gear, I wonder is that enough with a spacer fitted? And the bolt hole diameters, that would imply that they and not used to center the crown wheel. Fascinating, thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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