A few thoughts

[Retroanaconda]

I finally got to test drive a Grenadier today, only for a few hours but enough to get a feel for it on the road and what it’s like to drive.

 

In summary it drives well for a vehicle of this size, weight and design. It feels like a bigger and heavier Defender, but with an improved engine to match. This one was a petrol and scarily fast - with fuel consumption to match! With over half a tank of fuel left it was showing a range of 133 miles, ouch.

I’ll start with the main negative. The steering is pretty poor to be honest, it has a proper steering box rather than rack and pinion which is more robust off road for sure, but the cost is the feel which could be better. The much talked about lack of self-centring is definitely there, you would adapt to it pretty quickly and it would cease to be a big issue but it seems a silly fault to let slip through the net given all the good engineering that’s gone into the car. It is also quite subject to bump steer, similar to old Defenders. Other than that it feels good to drive and handles well, you can hustle it down the road pretty fast.  

This was a commercial 5-seat ‘station wagon’’, which means the second row seats are further forward. It gives a bigger load space at the cost of passenger legroom - indeed with the drivers seat in a comfortable position for me (5’ 11”) to drive, my knees were in the back of the seat when I sat in the back. This model and the two-seat utility wagon are N1 commercials, and are too heavy to be dual-purpose vehicles, so van speed limits apply. The fancy Belstaff editions have an extra 4” of legroom and are non- commercial M1 class so car limits apply.

The drivers footwell - another much debated subject. The left leg position I did find a bit awkward but I didn’t have any issues in the time I spent driving. I’d need to spend all day in it to be sure, but I’d be pretty confident that it would be no worse than an old defender footwell for comfort and I can easily spend all day in those. I think this issue is highly dependent on your individual size and frame.

One small thing I did find a bit annoying was that the sun visor protrudes down from the top of the screen an inch or so even when stowed. On a very short screen like this that extra inch is noticeable at traffic lights etc.

I also don’t really like the speedo etc. being in the middle or the aircraft-style switches but that’s just a personal taste thing. Build quality seems good, a small rattle from the dog guard but that’s all I could hear as we rattled over crappy country roads. The dash was full of warning lights and error messages (transmission fault, PDC fault, climate control fault…) but there’s apparently a software update due to solve those and I was told to ignore them.

Comparisons then. In terms of comfort and refinement the vehicle sits between the old defender and the new one. It is quiet, comfortable and handles well, and is worlds better than an old 90/110, but it is still a heavy beam-axled vehicle with basic steering and it’s never going to be as nice to drive as the independently air sprung L663. I did not drive it off road sadly but I have no doubt it will be equally as capable as both the old and new defenders. It’s limiting factor off road will be the sheer size and bulk of it (2.7 tonnes) so some tight UK greenlanes might be a challenge, but with the flexible suspension and (up to) three diff locks I reckon it will go most places you could point it.

I reckon as a long distance off road tourer it’s pretty damn good and could be a rival to the Land Cruiser, we will see what the US and Aussie markets make of it as that is mainly where those credentials are earned.

In summary - quite honestly if I didn’t already have the 110 I would probably have put a deposit down today. There are a few niggles to sort and I’d want a longer test of a diesel one if possible, but it seems to be an impressively capable vehicle and very suited to the sorts of things I use my Defenders for. Long term reliability remains to be seen of course, as does the much lauded ability to self-maintain. The latter is of great interest to me as once the 110 gets older that will become harder, whereas apparently Ineos will be encouraging it with manuals made available etc.

The cost is an issue. For a comparable spec station wagon version I’d be looking at ober £63k to replace the 110, a significant amount more than that cost, and with interest rates as they currently are and a frankly laughable part-exchange valuation I’ll be sticking with the Land Rover… for now 

Edited June 25, 2023 by Retroanaconda
Edited to correct model name/spec as was misinformed by dealer!

[deep]

Well, that was nicely objective and helpful!

[jeremy996]

It is hard to disagree wth any of that!

Mine is diesel and the MPG is slowly improving, I've got to 26mpg at the moment. Considering I'm a heavy footed, fairly rapid driver, fuel consumption is OK. (Old IAM instructor said I was good at "making progress"). Changing the seats to the rearwards position is a spanner job, but you would probably have to remake the brackets for the half height guard. My family consider the exisiting position to be perfectly adequate, but for them the LR110 is still a memory burned into the brain.

I never felt the steering was an issue, but I can understand the shock that someone fresh from a modern hatchback would feel from a standing start. The turning circle is not great either, like an old LR110 on wide rubber, so that would also be an inhibition. I adjusted to the speedo position in a couple of days, I can now operate some of the overhead switches without looking at them, (power to the sockets with the ignition off, off-road mode and the driving lights). The rattle from the dog guard is possibly the bottle jack, (not installed in its niche tightly enough - add a rag).

My truck would be £66k OTR now and that does seem like a lot, but I had a day's drive of a modern LR90 and did not love it and that was £80k. It is all a matter of priorities; do you want a well mannered road car for some off road work and expect to change it at the end of the PCP or do you want to buy a vehicle for life. If my Grenadier does not last me until I have to give up driving, I shall be well peeved, (and more than a little surprised).

Ineos have not managed the technical release too well so far, but the vehicle is fundimentally OK, with poor detail work on the on-board software, so it is unnecessarily alarmist. They have also missed expectations on the workshop and parts manual releases, but I have reasons for optimism in the future. 

[Happyoldgit]

An interesting, and as Deep says objective review that I will read and digest again later. I’m still waiting for my local dealer to call to invite me to a viewing and test drive as promised. 

[Snagger]

I’d be interested to try one, though I’d not be in the market for a new one.  As I said before, the dealer confusion over tax and speed restrictions, the issues with registration and the delays in the technical support are very disappointing, but where we see this as typical in the launch of a new model from most manufacturers, Ineos are not just launching a new model but a whole new company, so have a great deal to learn.  Hopefully, they’ll adapt fast and get those issues up to speed.

The steering seems a regular mention (if not quite a full-fledged complaint).  I wonder if their Series 2, whenever that may occur, will see a change made there.

I have to say, from all I have seen of this car, wary of the issues that seem to have come up, I’m still impressed.  It has an ethos that I really like and seems a very worth successor to the LR utilities.  I rather like the switch gear and panels, but perhaps that is to be expected.  It goes to show how much of this is down to individual taste, that feature having been been mentioned as a negative above.  It must be difficult to design any car to appeal to a wide market with such wide and opposing tastes.

[Retroanaconda]

Was out all day in a colleagues new Grenadier yesterday, his is a fairly well-specced diesel station wagon. The much-awaited software update obviously hasn’t reached him yet as the dash was lit up like a Christmas tree all day even though everything was working. However the door open and seatbelt warning bongs were going off randomly for most of the day - quite annoying!

The above notwithstanding it is a really nice place to be, and I think it’s going to be a great vehicle once the niggles are sorted. There is certainly a lot to like and so with my interest buoyed once more, I looked at the configurator again but it seems there has been a big price hike across all models as they launched the pickup version. The fairly basic vehicle I specified after my test drive (diesel utility wagon with smooth and rough packs, plus a towbar) has gone up from £63k to £70k.

For me it’s sadly now just too expensive, and I am going to rebuild my 110 with a modern engine instead. It will never be as good as a Grenadier, and obviously won’t be new, but I can probably get a vehicle that is 75%+ as good for around 25% of the cost.

[Snagger]

A shame, but inflation, materials and components shortages and bank interest rates will only make everything more expensive for the foreseeable future.  The Defender may not appeal as much any more, but it is still a hell of a classic.

[Lightning]

I've driven the Grenadier and it is a great vehicle although feels quite large.

Nevertheless l would have bought one if it had been classed as "Commercial" by HMRC, which it isn't.

So l couldn't put it through my business.

lnstead l bought a basic coil sprung Defender 90 Commercial. Putting this through my business has saved me £14,000 in tax, effectively making the Defender £40,000

For my business use the new Defender is fabulous, the D250 diesel generates 600Nm torque at 1500rpm, and towing our caravan is completely effortless.

However if l was setting out to drive to Cape Town it would be the Grenadier l would choose.

[Retroanaconda]

I attended the Grenadier test drive event at Glen Tanar estate yesterday, so thought I’d add a bit to this thread on how I found it off road. Sorry I didn’t get many photos!

First though another point on the steering. I drove two vehicles yesterday, one on the off road course and one on a road circuit - the latter had horrendous steering that felt pretty unsafe at higher speeds on uneven roads. The other car felt fine so I am pretty sure there was an issue with the second vehicle, but the guy with me wasn’t having any of it and said it was normal. It felt like an old 110 with the swivel pre-loads set far too loose. The lack of self-centring was also still evident on both cars but as I’ve said above already you would adapt to that pretty quickly.

The main interest for me however was the off road test. To my surprise the course was actually quite technical, it was rutted tracks through woodland but there were a number of tight turns, loose ascents/decents and side slopes that along with the wet conditions owing to recent weather made it a pretty good test in my opinion. Certainly much more testing than the likes of the sanitised LR Experience courses.

Unsurprisingly the car had no issues, for the huge heavy lump that it is it was actually fairly easy to manoeuvre it around the course. I did miss the cameras on the 110 but the visibility at the front is slightly better on the grenadier. The traction control worked well, it’s a bit more rudimentary than LR’s system and slower to react but it never struggled to get me up the hills.

One thing I was surprised at was the lack of ground clearance. The vehicles were all catching on bits of the course where a standard old 90/110 (or a new one in off road height) would not.

Overall it feels just like a bigger, heavier, more solid 110 and performs off road in a similar way. The main difference being the significant extra weight and I could really feel the effects of that on the side slopes and ascents/descents.

[Anderzander]

On 7/22/2023 at 12:40 PM, Retroanaconda said:

I am going to rebuild my 110 with a modern engine instead. It will never be as good as a Grenadier, and obviously won’t be new, but I can probably get a vehicle that is 75%+ as good for around 25% of the cost.

I missed this - great news that your 110 will live again 😊