discojmz Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 oh masters of LRT01 i require your guidance sunday night i went to set off back to leeds in my disco (200tdi) and found i had no alternator, power steering or air con. on examination, my crank pulley (damper) has blown out a piece about a 5p size where the woodruff key is and spun on the nose of the shaft, still attached by the bolt. the woodruff key has gone or shaved away flush, and the nose of the shaft has become scored quite badly (although not especially deeply) my dad took it to local independant LR garage this morning who aparently very quickly decided it was knackered and would cost 800 to put a new crank in, 500 for a replacement engine in or what have you. so i told him to bring it back home until i get back at the weekend. engine runs so nicely which makes it all the more annoying. now according to microcat, the woodruff keys are replaceable and are the beveled bottom ones so what remains of one can be retrieved surely scoring of the shaft wont make it such as that i cant fit a new damper and pulley, new woodruff key and nice shiny new bolt with half a gallon of threadlock will it? should the worst come to the worst, ive aversion other than cost of putting a new crank in the engine. ive rebuilt a tdi before. but what are my other options (NO V8s, i would love to, but i really cant afford that) 300tdis seem to be cheaper to buy at present (200s getting rare?) but i was getting 36mpg on a run, and 300s wont touch that, plus i like my agricultural engine and i bet the 300 wont mate to the existing LT77 bellhousing will it? all opinions and advice welcomed. having a REALLY bad week Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzaz Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 oh comon!!! just take the damper off and clean the crank and put a new key, threadlock on the bolt and tighten it up like it will never have to come off again! I bought my converion engine with the same problem you mention... the previous owner decided to replace the engine... does not make sense to me! but then thinking of it, labour costs in the UK are quite high I should think... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pugwash Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 redrill the crank with a crank pin kit- allows you to put two new keys into the crank insitu as well as drill the pulley at the same time. Commonly used by LS1 guys who want to use a ford crank sensor- the LSx engine has no key in it! http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.a...mp;autoview=sku and will ship to UK they're god kits and even come with drill bit. If i can use one to pint the crank then anyone can. not sure if there is a differenc in size between the crank nose of the LS1 and RV*- i would guess there is, but i'm pretty sure you can get round it without to much trouble! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JST Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 remove and refit with new pulley and key, why would it matter if its scoured anyway, the pulley doesnt (well when fixed it wont) rotate on it anyway! just check no debris etc has penetrated the front crank oil seal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disco_al Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 clean and refit would be my vote on this too. maybe worth considering a new crank seal just in case and a cambelt change while the pulley is already removed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickeyw Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 oh masters of LRT01 i require your guidancesunday night i went to set off back to leeds in my disco (200tdi) and found i had no alternator, power steering or air con. on examination, my crank pulley (damper) has blown out a piece about a 5p size where the woodruff key is and spun on the nose of the shaft, still attached by the bolt. the woodruff key has gone or shaved away flush, and the nose of the shaft has become scored quite badly (although not especially deeply) my dad took it to local independant LR garage this morning who aparently very quickly decided it was knackered and would cost 800 to put a new crank in, 500 for a replacement engine in or what have you. so i told him to bring it back home until i get back at the weekend. engine runs so nicely which makes it all the more annoying. now according to microcat, the woodruff keys are replaceable and are the beveled bottom ones so what remains of one can be retrieved surely scoring of the shaft wont make it such as that i cant fit a new damper and pulley, new woodruff key and nice shiny new bolt with half a gallon of threadlock will it? should the worst come to the worst, ive aversion other than cost of putting a new crank in the engine. ive rebuilt a tdi before. but what are my other options (NO V8s, i would love to, but i really cant afford that) 300tdis seem to be cheaper to buy at present (200s getting rare?) but i was getting 36mpg on a run, and 300s wont touch that, plus i like my agricultural engine and i bet the 300 wont mate to the existing LT77 bellhousing will it? all opinions and advice welcomed. having a REALLY bad week Jim Hi Jim, Do you know anyone with a TIG welder? My engineering approach to this would be to clean up the nose of the shaft and delicately build up the edges of the keyway with weld. I appreciate this not the easiest place to get a welder to, but I reckon with the rad out of the way it could be done without removing the engine. I'm not too familiar with the tdi but maybe the front cover would need to come off too. I suggest welding it little at a time to avoid getting too much heat into the local area and melting any seals or affecting the structure of the crank. Then any excess weld would need dressing off perhaps with a Dremmel or similar, ensuring the new woodruff key is a good fit. This will take a bit of time and patience! Take care not to send grinding grit into the important parts of the engine, cover or mask areas as necessary. Then with a new front pulley you should have effected a durable repair. Just make sure the bolt/nut holding the pulley on has plenty of threadlock on it when it all goes back together. I hope this sounds more encouraging than scary. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_d Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 We can't of course see how badly scorred the crank is but if you have made your mind up that the shaft is not going to be replaced then I would fit a new key, new or secondhand pully and bed it all on Loctite 603 or 648. Disassembly in the future would be slightly more difficult but that may just be the price to pay. Before you fit it all try the pulley and new key. If the fit is not good then file a new oversize key for best fit. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discojmz Posted March 11, 2008 Author Share Posted March 11, 2008 think i'll be taking the engine out to do the work, its that easy to get it out and its that frustrating working down the front of it. that way if it needs to be, it's already out. will of course take and post pictures of the damage as soon as i can (thursday night or friday probably) for evaluation. meanwhile, keep the suggestions coming, as well as contingency plans. cant afford it off the road for long thanks again jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 It's not something I've done myself, but I know of at least one person who's repaired a damaged keyway with chemical metal without any subsequent problems. Taking it apart in the future may be a bit of an 'issue', of course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzaz Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Do you know anyone with a TIG welder? My engineering approach to this would be to clean up the nose of the shaft and delicately build up the edges of the keyway with weld. I appreciate this not the easiest place to get a welder to, but I reckon with the rad out of the way it could be done without removing the engine. I'm not too familiar with the tdi but maybe the front cover would need to come off too. Thats what I'm doing on mine, but I got the crank out as I'm rebuilding it...will fill it with welding and machine a new keyway..but if I wasnt doin a rebuild, I wouldnt bother much, just make sure the bolt is tight and it shouldnt give problems. My friends td had the same thing, well even worse bec when we changed the timing belt we found that even the crank timing gear had lot of play on the keyway, changed that one but didnt bother to put a key on the TV damper (there wasnt any of the keyway left!!), gave a good tightening along with threadlock and thats it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars L Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 The keyway was buggered on my 200Tdi too, together with a piece of the harmonic damper hanging loose. I filled the gaps around a new key with chemical metal, finished the lot with a Dremel and fit a new damper. No worries for 20000km this far. The key is actually not there to hold anything, just a guide. Proper tightening of the bolt is what hold things in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRecklessEngineer Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 I fixed a 200TDi with this problem once. It had been running for a while with the bolt loose, so the end of the crank had become worn and the pulley likewise. I made a collar from steel bar a few thou too small to fit over the crank with a similar profile to the worn portion on the inside, and a profile to fit the pulley on the outside. I placed this in the pulley and when the bolt was tightened the collar was forced over the end of the crank jamming itself between the crank and the pulley. It is a bit of a bodge and you aren't going to get the pulley off without a struggle, but it worked! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discojmz Posted March 13, 2008 Author Share Posted March 13, 2008 right, front of the engine is suitably stripped down. damage is now clear and aparent. the shaft itself seems to have taken little damage as such. it is scored but doesnt seem to have lost any thickness. for anyone who can confirm or otherwise, calipers read 32mm inside of damper hasnt been so lucky and is well worn (deep lip at the front) haynes book of lies shows two keys in the shaft, microcat shows the same, i only have one, that will need replacing where it's broken as it comes out the sprocket. you can see this in the pictures. will need a blob of chemical metal too by the looks of things. did wonder if i used to have another key on the shaft but ive emery'd the shaft and theres no way there was ever another key there. thoughts?? cheers jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milemarker Type S Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Not the best engineering approach but... another vote for chemical metal Very good stuff if left for a few days to really go off... basically use the stuff on any bits that are loose and then assemble and tighten the hell out of the bolt... Yes when you ever want to get it appart it may be tricky but infinitely better than having to rebuild a perfectly good engine now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonb Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 did wonder if i used to have another key on the shaft but ive emery'd the shaft and theres no way there was ever another key there. 2nd key should be under the belt sprocket if you remove that.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discojmz Posted March 13, 2008 Author Share Posted March 13, 2008 so the sprocket covers 1 1/2 of them and the damper only latches onto the half that sticks out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonb Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 so the sprocket covers 1 1/2 of them and the damper only latches onto the half that sticks out? IIRC on my 300tdi, front key was under pulley, rear was under sprocket, I think it was just one slot for both keys. Not sure if the 200 is the same. But i would suggest removing the sprocket, you may be able to hook out the remains of the broken key. Then fit a new one and as most seem to suggest on here build up the crank nose with chemical metal. As previously said, on a tdi since the crank bolt is vvvvvery tight, its the clamping force of that which keeps it all tight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discojmz Posted March 13, 2008 Author Share Posted March 13, 2008 sprocket is coming off to do that key, and also to check and probably replace anyway, the oil seal behind it. the broken pieces of metal ripped the outer dust seal in the timing cover, to pieces Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars L Posted March 14, 2008 Share Posted March 14, 2008 so the sprocket covers 1 1/2 of them and the damper only latches onto the half that sticks out? Yes indeed. On mine, the wobbling of the pulley on the key had widened the slot in the belt sprocket as well so I had to replace it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discojmz Posted March 15, 2008 Author Share Posted March 15, 2008 All fixed and back together! thankyou one and all for your help jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon W Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Good thread, I have the enjoyment of doing the same tomorrow and then setting the timing on mine as that seems to have gone up the creek too. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discojmz Posted March 17, 2008 Author Share Posted March 17, 2008 good luck Jon, thankfully my crank was scored but not actually worn much. enough for the new pulley to slide on more easily, but not the 2mm of diameter missing that the orignal damper had. most difficult bit was getting the crank sprocket off. required mapp gas and a home made puller with hardened teeth to tease it off the shaft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon W Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 Right well made a good start all came apart easily as had change the cam belt about 8 months before. The pulley came off easily and may want replacing. I need to replace the front woodruff key as it is very bent allowing the timing to change which what was hopefully causing my bad runnig problems. Where do I get a replacement key from?? Landrover parts shop? Or what size does it need to be as I do have a piece of material that I got extra when making wood ruff keys for my PTO winch. Only thing I need to read up on is how to retime the whole thing. What I first saw Damaged Crank Damaged pulley Remains of the key Damage to keyway on the crank Wood ruff key I have and can cut down. Thanks Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzaz Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 that keyway is in a dire state! but Ive seen worse... you can buy the keys, they are cheap, bought those for 29p each. Give it a good clean up, you should also consider changing the oilseal while at it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon W Posted March 17, 2008 Share Posted March 17, 2008 I am changing the front crank seal and the timing case seal. Where did you get the keys from?? And then I will put a new key in with some chemical metal, any recoomendations on what is best. Am just fiddling on other jobs, cleaning bits up for new gaskets while I wait from replies. Thanks Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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