ETC vs Double ARB lockers

[JST]

Thanks for all the great data and opinions, I am learning a lot.

It seems like there is a big difference between the electronuc traction control of a Discovery 3 and the ETC of previous Discos and Defenders (optional).

If I did not get it wrong Discovery 3's have electronic traction control but also include (standard, from factory) electronically controlled diff lockers. Then, the interesting (and more or less fair) comparison to do would be: a Defender (or older Discovery) with double ARB against a Disco 3 (with lockers included anyways).

Am I correct?

Any guesses on what should peform better?

Anybody knows if the optional ETC system available for the 2008 Defender (Puma engine equipped) also includes electronically controlled lockers? In other words is it exactly the same traction controll system that comes on Discovery 3's? If this is not the case I suspect that a 2008 Defender equipped with double ARB's and no ETC should outperform (in heavy off road situations) a 2008 Defender with ETC and no lockers. Anybody agrees?

Finally, from previous comments it sounds like a double ARB and ETC equipped Defender wouldn't make it more capable off road than if it only had 2 ARB's and no ETC. The only benefit would be having the option to choose between ETC or ARB use, but this would not necessarily imply having more off road capabilities. Am I correct???

Cheers

Santiago

in answer to your paras:

Yep there is a big difference between D2 and D3 predominantly Terrain Response!

no electronically controlled lockers on the 07 def. TC systems are not the same Def to D3, D3 does all wheels compared against each other, def does it across each axle only. i agree to your last sentence if the guy driving it knows how to use them.

correct you need more off road experience to operate the ARBs than the ETC system in my opinion.

Gus,

Do you recon that with 2 ARB's your Defender is capable of very difficult climbs that it cannot achieve with only ETC connected? What model is your Defender?

Thanks

it depends on the conditions as aforemention Sand - ARBs are better, the last thing you want is a wheel to spin on sand/snow.

Out of interest is this thread to help you decide on whether to buy a truck with ETC or Get ARBs for it? If so then i would add in shafts and CVs to the ARB price comparison.

Steve G option of rear locker and ETC would be a good mix.

[Santiago]

JST,

As mentioned above, I already own a Defender Td5 (now with 2.8 HS International engine) with 2 ARB's and standard half-shafts and CV's. So far haven't broken anything but I tend to be extemely careful and tend to connect the ARB's on first low box and tickover or very little throttle because: a) my engine has lots of torque at low revs (max at 1400rpm) and B) I do not want to brake hañf shafts.

I am considering an ETC equipped Defender but for the future, myabe in a few years time, if they are still being built.....let's see what TATA says.

Thanks a lot for your help!

Santiago

[Jens]

You can fit your LR with ABS, TC, ARB and what not, but at the end of the day it's really down to the driver.

I have driven through mud, snow and climbed rocks in a standard Defender where a fully overland equipped get stuck half way in or up.

Sometimes I think people fill their LR with so much extra **** that they end up half a ton heavier and half as good as they use to be.

A set of good tires and the ability to read the terrain is the most important thing when driving off-road.

[FridgeFreezer]

Sometimes I think people fill their LR with so much extra **** that they end up half a ton heavier and half as good as they use to be.

A set of good tires and the ability to read the terrain is the most important thing when driving off-road.

That's rather controversial - does anyone else know of this?

[BogMonster]

That's rather controversial - does anyone else know of this?

I have heard it said on occasions

The reverse is certainly true - a complete muppet charging into things headlong will get hopelessly stuck whatever he is driving. It happens to a lot of green vehicles here, I remember a few years ago seeing somebody with 11.50 tractor-tread tyres on, buried up to the headlights in a lovely patch of green grass, not feeling quite as invincible as he had a few moments previously when he pressed the loud pedal

Stephen (with a good set of tyres and no lockers)

[SteveBo]

I have a 2005 TD5 XS spec with ABS.

As far as I know it doesn't have ETC i.e. there are no ETC swiches or other controls I'm aware of.

Does anyone know how I can physically check to see if I do have ETC?

Just nice to know if I have something else that can go wrong...

[BogMonster]

If it has ABS then it has ETC - the two only go together. If you spin the wheels on a loose surface you should get a TC light on the dash and a rattle from under the bonnet as the pump fires up.

You cannot switch it off with a switch because there isn't one, though I haven't tried the method described above.

Or you can keep it for a couple of years and wait till all the warning lights come on then you will know it is there

[SteveBo]

Thanks, it makes sense that I would have both since the same technology performs both functions.

I've felt the ABS working under sharp braking on loose surfaces. I guess I need to be a bit more enthusiastic to get the ETC to kick in.

I guess I was thinking of the old hill descent on Freelanders, Disco IIs when I referred to switches.

[BogMonster]

Find some loose gravel, turn the steering full left lock and nail the throttle and you should wake up the ETC with no problem at all

[DSN]

Thanks for all the great data and opinions, I am learning a lot.

It seems like there is a big difference between the electronuc traction control of a Discovery 3 and the ETC of previous Discos and Defenders (optional).

If I did not get it wrong Discovery 3's have electronic traction control but also include (standard, from factory) electronically controlled diff lockers. Then, the interesting (and more or less fair) comparison to do would be: a Defender (or older Discovery) with double ARB against a Disco 3 (with lockers included anyways).

Am I correct?

Any guesses on what should peform better?

Anybody knows if the optional ETC system available for the 2008 Defender (Puma engine equipped) also includes electronically controlled lockers? In other words is it exactly the same traction controll system that comes on Discovery 3's? If this is not the case I suspect that a 2008 Defender equipped with double ARB's and no ETC should outperform (in heavy off road situations) a 2008 Defender with ETC and no lockers. Anybody agrees?

Finally, from previous comments it sounds like a double ARB and ETC equipped Defender wouldn't make it more capable off road than if it only had 2 ARB's and no ETC. The only benefit would be having the option to choose between ETC or ARB use, but this would not necessarily imply having more off road capabilities. Am I correct???

Cheers

Santiago

Disco2 TC was very similar to the Defender TC. Both Wabco systems. Disco3 has a lot more modern system that also incorporates a lot more feautres and functions. Disco3 also now has a rear eDiff as an option. This is electronically controlled as mentioned earlier on by FF I think. All Disco3 come with an electronically controlled centre diff as well.

New Defender still has the same Wabco TC as previous TD5 models. I believe it just had mild work to make it work with the new engine. No lockers for defender other than the standard manual centre diff. I think LR would have to do a lot of work to beef up the drivetrain to cope with an axle locker if they offered it as too much opportunity for careless drivers to destroy things.

[Porny]

You cannot switch it off with a switch because there isn't one, though I haven't tried the method described above.

Which one....

Removing the fuse or the method I posted earlier in this thread??

Traction Control can be disabled by operating the brake pedal ten times within ten seconds, when the ignition is turned on.

Traction Control will be re-activated when the ignition is turned off then on again.

If the one above... then as it's take from the Land Rover workshop manual then I gather it works

Ian

[Escape]

I bought my Defender in 2005 it had ETC as an option, mainly because I wanted ABS for on-road.

As I had no off-road experience at all, the ETC was very usefull in the beginning, coping with difficult terrain even when I goofed up. But it did give a warning (the TC light), so I could learn from the experiences. After about 6 months I found I was reaching the limits of ETC more often, having the system cut out due to overheating or losing momentum when I needed it. I then installed rear and front ARBs, and couldn't be happier with them! With everything locked, traction is maximised, whatever the situation. ETC is very good in trying, but just can't perform quite as good.

So I would agree with most of the posts here, if you know what you are doing, there is nothing better then a full locker. But ETC is great in all but the most extreme of circumstances, acts independant of the driver and doesn't influence the steering.

If you own an ARB equiped truck, changing to ETC might be a bit of a disappointment.

On one matter I have to disagree though: ARB and ETC is not a good combination for me. I had the ETC come on a few times, even when it shouldn't with the lockers engaged and not helping at all. So I rigged it with a relais activated by the compressor switch, disengaging the ETC before operating the lockers.

[Exmoor Beast]

Great thread

We were lucky enough to get to abuse a new TC equiped 90 at Eastnor last year, both me and my mate have driven all types of LRs for years and we were both amazed at what the TC could persuade std road tyres to find grip on. It would certainly be interesting to try one with decent mud tyres in stupidly difficult terrain.

Personally I like to trust blind optimism, left foot braking and a LSD rear axle

Will

[Santiago]

Escape,

Your personal experience is very, VERY interesting.

Together with all the previous comments it gives me a pretty good idea of what ETC (or TC whatever you call it) in a Defender is like.

Nevertheless according to comments from LR Discovery 3 it looks like these kinds of electronic traction technologies are getting better everyday and maybe they will end up beating a fully mechanically locked vehicle soon.

Cheers,

Santiago

[BogMonster]

it looks like these kinds of electronic traction technologies are getting better everyday and maybe they will end up beating a fully mechanically locked vehicle soon.

They are vastly improved and now very impressive, but I think a mechanically locked diff will always win in the end simply because anything else is reactive to the conditions rather than proactive before you get to the conditions

[SteveBo]

Find some loose gravel, turn the steering full left lock and nail the throttle and you should wake up the ETC with no problem at all

And spray the wife's car with gravel. Heh he.

[Escape]

Escape,

Your personal experience is very, VERY interesting.

Together with all the previous comments it gives me a pretty good idea of what ETC (or TC whatever you call it) in a Defender is like.

Nevertheless according to comments from LR Discovery 3 it looks like these kinds of electronic traction technologies are getting better everyday and maybe they will end up beating a fully mechanically locked vehicle soon.

Cheers,

Santiago

Santiago,

I have seen Disco 3s and Range Rover Sports tackle some difficult terrain, on ATs at best, and they were indeed very impressive. Certainly for a novice driver, they offer the ultimate in offroad performance. However, you simply cannot better a set-up with three locking diffs when it comes to traction (in essence this means every tire can exploit every bit of traction it can find), which is probably the reason why LR offers the centre difflock as standard and a rear locker as an option, be it in electronically activated form. The only real advantage I see is the ability to go from unlocked over partially locked to fully locked, depending on the conditions (steering angle for example), thus offering a lot more possibilities compared to ARBs, especially for the less experienced driver.

In my opinion, the main drawback of the electronics will alwas be the lack of situational awareness. A (good) driver will have some idea as to what to expect, the electronics can only react when it is allready happening.

I once saw evidence of this on a difficult sloping strectch of wet grass. The RRS in front of me had a lot of difficulty moving off, with some wheels spinning just long enough to dig in and make the situation even worse. I was on road-biased tires (Michelin XPC) at the time, but had engaged my ARBs and clearly had less difficulty.

Greetz,

Filip

[Erwin Schumann]

Surely anything that bogs you down with wheelspin (such as sand dunes) would be worse off with ETC.

[BogMonster]

Correct

[MINESAPINT]

^^^^^^^^^

Rear lockers as an option?

I cannot find it in the brochure?

MINESAPINT

[BogMonster]

Electrically operated rear locker is an option on the Discovery 3. You can't switch it on though, only controlled by Terrain Response.