In need of some tdi experts/guru’s

[nicks90]

Talking Heads:-

Were on a road to nowhere

Come on inside

Takin that ride to nowhere

Well take that ride

soz mate,

you've said a few times in your posts about not having the mechanical aptitude for a engine replacement or facilities to do it.

so what makes you think you can run a mildly tuned tdi - flick a switch for NOS/WOT (or whatever it is) and expect the engine to not try and blow itself through the bonnet when it starts spewing out 250bhp?

thats of course if the diff internals or cogs outta the box dont scatter themselves liberally all over the road within 2 seconds..........

it aint gonna happen. if you want serious power then ignore a tdi. if people could get 200+bhp out of a standard LR tdi diesel lump for less than £1k, then most of us would have done it. But then you need alot more than £1k to get a drivetrain capable of coping with 200+bhp

[The Hatt]

soz mate,

you've said a few times in your posts about not having the mechanical aptitude for a engine replacement or facilities to do it.

Becuase I've stripped and rebuilt a Triumph TR7 from a stock 2.0 FHC to a 3.5 Rover V8 with different suspension, axle, transmission, modded motor custom interior and exterior. Last time it was on the rollers it was making a tad under 200whp.

I've also swap the engine over in my Discovery as I blew the original up.

Restored a MGB GT and used to work in the aero industry overhauling light aircraft props and engines.

No I don't think I'm a good mechanic as I know there are loads of people better than I.

Also I moved house last year and no longer have a driveway or a workshop as I did previously, the road I live on is fairly narrow and fairly busy and not suitable to do an engine swap on. I also suffer from back injury which prevents me from performing some mechanical work that I was previously able to do.

So to perform an engine swap it would require more than just me to do it.

Fitting nitrous is a bottle in boot, some nylon tubing, drilling the intake manifold and fitting a solenoid. Fairly low key stuff to un-plumbing an entire motor ripping it out and installing another one.

so what makes you think you can run a mildly tuned tdi - flick a switch for NOS/WOT (or whatever it is) and expect the engine to not try and blow itself through the bonnet when it starts spewing out 250bhp?

1. WOT = Wide Open Throttle. It's not a thing but an action.

2. NOS is a brand and manufacturer same as Hoover or Selotape.

I think it because people having been running nitrous on a multitude of engines for years and when used in sensible moderation and proper installation are proven to work.

As for the tdi itself. Well again that was the whole point of this thread. Trying to find the weaknesses in the tdi motors.

NEVER once have I asked is nitrous the route to go.

thats of course if the diff internals or cogs outta the box dont scatter themselves liberally all over the road within 2 seconds..........

They may very well, but time will tell.

if people could get 200+bhp out of a standard LR tdi diesel lump for less than £1k, then most of us would have done it.

This doesn't make sense.

Any car can produce more power and usually easily and cheaply too. But for the very vast majority out there they don't. This logic simple doesn't stand.

5th Gear took a 90bhp diesel automatic Golf and fitted a nitrous kit to it. Then proceeded to race a Honda NSX, fair do in the vid the Golf lost but it kept with the NSX to about 100mph. That kit cost just over $1k to fit, but how many people do you know of that have diesel auto hatchbacks with near supercar performance credentials.

It's easy, it's cheap yet few seem to do it.

But then you need alot more than £1k to get a drivetrain capable of coping with 200+bhp

So how do these guys with tweaked 3.9 V8's get away with it, or even a standard 4.6 making 225bhp?

[FridgeFreezer]

Still the friendly forum I see....

It's called constructive criticism, as I said if you want the blunt version ask the same questions on Pirate.

If you expect to turn up on a forum, ask what many would say is a rather daft question with apparently minimal research, and have people fall at your feet to help you do it, you've been living a sheltered life. No-one's actually told you you're an idiot, just questioned the logic of the project - with fairly good reason, let's be frank.

And BTW how do you know I'm not a lady

Well put your knickers on and make me a cup of tea then

Well ok how much is your time?

For the next 2 months at least it's more than you can afford.

2. Fuelling has already been tweaked and the Bosch injector pump has more tweaking ability with the smoke screw and other controls. WON also have a device which can replace the smoke screw to allow higher fuelling when the nitrous is activated.

Now we're getting somewhere - useful information. OK so you have the capability to correct the fuelling. One tick on the list.

4. Was the whole point of this thread - NEED SOME HELP identifying the weak spots on the tdi engines. Where and how have people broken them. So far not a single post has pointed me at an example of where a piston has failed, a head cracked or anything.

Plenty of TDi's have f***ed up without being tweaked, the favourite being the cambelt. My limited knowledge is that the heads don't respond well to problems as they can warp and there's only so many times you can skim them. Will, against all odds, gave some useful information about the cranks being prone to breaking which would put a bit of a crimp on your day.

Out performing means total cost, ease of modification as well as acceleration and driveability.

If only for the sanity of your insurance co, have you looked at LPG? It has a similar effect, the hardware is cheap and the gas is easy to come by.

And to be honest I first started on this train of thought buy looking at fitting a Jaguar 4.2 V8 to a Defender but after some research it appeared that I could find no one who had done this and that getting the Jaguar V8 to run without its ECU is very very difficult even more so if you want a manual gearbox, which ideally I do.

What's the issue making the jag unit run then? Are we talking making the factory ECU happy to run out of the car, making an aftermarket ECU run the jag hardware, or ditching the jag hardware and using more universal injection gear? It's wandering away from TDi's I know (but it's my favourite direction where available) but that sounds like a far more interesting and ultimately useful project. If you're getting the chequebook out I'd be tempted to have a go at that one.

[Kev Baldwin]

IIRC. 'Porny' on this forum has succesfully done a Jag 4.2 conversion into a LR racer. He'll be along to correct me if I'm wrong. He's the man to tell you how to go about it and he'll be able to tell you what will work and what won't. He knows a thing or two about Jag engines....

[Steve Hiatt]

Kev, there is definitely one in a Simmbugghini and numerous supercharged RR engines around after a large collection in crates turned up.

[The Hatt]

If you expect to turn up on a forum, ask what many would say is a rather daft question with apparently minimal research,

Excuse me but I thought I asked about how strong the engine was. And THIS is the research. :rolleyes:

Now we're getting somewhere - useful information. OK so you have the capability to correct the fuelling. One tick on the list.

But I've already posted this information a couple of times....

Plenty of TDi's have f***ed up without being tweaked, the favourite being the cambelt.

Ok this is kinda responding to my question, although to make more sense of this I need examples of the failures and reasons as to why.

If someone's ragged a tdi and never serviced it for 10 years and over 100,000 miles then a cambelt failure can hardly be blamed 100% on poor design.

In my personal experience I know of only a single tdi failing - mine!!! But we belive it was caused by incorrect timing of the Zeus timing gears it had (fitted by previous owner) I then tweaked the pump which probably speeded up the envitable.

My limited knowledge is that the heads don't respond well to problems as they can warp and there's only so many times you can skim them. Will, against all odds, gave some useful information about the cranks being prone to breaking which would put a bit of a crimp on your day.

The info about cranks is good. But again a few examples would be nice. Was it limited to some years, all years. Where the failures more common on vehicle modified to rev higher or on totally stock ones????

If only for the sanity of your insurance co, have you looked at LPG? It has a similar effect, the hardware is cheap and the gas is easy to come by.

First off insurance isn't an issue.

2nd LPG has already been discussed.

What's the issue making the jag unit run then? Are we talking making the factory ECU happy to run out of the car, making an aftermarket ECU run the jag hardware, or ditching the jag hardware and using more universal injection gear? It's wandering away from TDi's I know (but it's my favourite direction where available) but that sounds like a far more interesting and ultimately useful project. If you're getting the chequebook out I'd be tempted to have a go at that one.

This is all good and to be honest I find it interesting too. :lol:

Essentially I don't know the specifics, I gave up after finding so little info. There was good info on some of the Cobra replica forums. Main issues seemed to be the factory ECU was also incorportaed into the gearbox. I know there are companies that fill fit the Jaguar V8 into Series 3 XJ's and MK2 Jags but I think they take the whole thing. In a Land Rover there's also the transfer box and the fact that I really wanted a manual. I spoke to Ashcrofts about what LR gearbox would most likely hack the torque from the Jag 4.2 V8.

But from my reading it appears you would need to have a flywheel made for the V8 to attach to a manual.

There where some other issues raised concerning the use of Megasquirt. I think ultimatley it should be possible, but no one (including people using it) seem to know the ins and outs of getting it to work. This is beyond me as I've never used Megasquirt.

Seriously, if you know of a way to get the Jag V8 running on Megasquirt and a way of getting it mate to a manual gearbox for sensible money I'd ditch the idea of nitrous on the tdi.

I still personally think the LS1 is better V8 but the Jag unit has the virtue that it could be used at ARC events as Land Rover use the same engine.

[Happyoldgit]

'Interesting' thread, let's keep it civil

[The Hatt]

IIRC. 'Porny' on this forum has succesfully done a Jag 4.2 conversion into a LR racer. He'll be along to correct me if I'm wrong. He's the man to tell you how to go about it and he'll be able to tell you what will work and what won't. He knows a thing or two about Jag engines....

COOL :D

Very interested......

Do you know are any of them running manual transmissions?

[FridgeFreezer]

Seriously, if you know of a way to get the Jag V8 running on Megasquirt and a way of getting it mate to a manual gearbox for sensible money I'd ditch the idea of nitrous on the tdi.

I refer you to my previous comment - If it runs on fuel & sparks it can be megasquirted. Modern stuff sometimes has stupid stuff like coded injectors on it but if you hit that you can engineer a way round by replacing with more standard parts that do what they're told. I wouldn't name a price but I would bet you if you dropped a Jag lump in my back garden I could get it running on MS.

[The Hatt]

I refer you to my previous comment - If it runs on fuel & sparks it can be megasquirted. Modern stuff sometimes has stupid stuff like coded injectors on it but if you hit that you can engineer a way round by replacing with more standard parts that do what they're told. I wouldn't name a price but I would bet you if you dropped a Jag lump in my back garden I could get it running on MS.

Yeah seems its a bit too much work and going beyond my comfortable knowledge base. I'm not really wanting to pioneer a Jag V8 conversinon but would rather follow a succesful formula someone else has tried.

Looking at what is possible I have no doubt you could get it running, but I don't have the money or time to buy a V8, gearbox, wiring loom, Megasquirt, exhaust, fuel requirements. Someone to fit it or help me fit it and then do a load of R&D for months just trying to get it to start and run.

Ls1 fiarly easy. GM offer a carb kit and I know of others that run Megasquirt on them. Also seems adapters can be bought to mate to a LT230. Shame if I did this I couldn't run at ARC events.

[FridgeFreezer]

Ls1 fiarly easy. GM offer a carb kit

Bolting a carb to a factory-EFi motor is like bolting NOS to a... oh, never mind

[The Hatt]

Ls1 fiarly easy. GM offer a carb kit

Bolting a carb to a factory-EFi motor is like bolting NOS to a... oh, never mind

eh?

Don't really follow. Carbs work and work well. It also make wiring very simple and easy. Not saying they are the best, but I've run loads of vehicles on carbs and never had any real problems.

The carb kit is offered by General Motors, the manufacturers of the engine. Sure they might have some idea about getting it to work.

[nicks90]

Also I moved house last year and no longer have a driveway or a workshop as I did previously, the road I live on is fairly narrow and fairly busy and not suitable to do an engine swap on. I also suffer from back injury which prevents me from performing some mechanical work that I was previously able to do.

sorry dude, wasnt having a go. What i was getting at is that to strengthen a tdi to be able to cope with such huge loads is going to require a fair bit of work, which you said you cant do and cant afford for someone else to do. As others have said, modified head bolts, probably an aftermarket crank and bolts, fully balanced, some serious head work to get gas in/out efficiently etcetcetc

There are plenty of people out there who have tweaked tdis and exceeded the EGT limits and melted/blown stuff. You WILL be exceeding the recommended EGT running funky gas at full throttle/boost and its only a matter of time before moving parts glow white and sticks to itself.

Any car can produce more power and usually easily and cheaply too. But for the very vast majority out there they don't. This logic simple doesn't stand.

5th Gear took a 90bhp diesel automatic Golf and fitted a nitrous kit to it. Then proceeded to race a Honda NSX, fair do in the vid the Golf lost but it kept with the NSX to about 100mph. That kit cost just over $1k to fit, but how many people do you know of that have diesel auto hatchbacks with near supercar performance credentials.

It's easy, it's cheap yet few seem to do it.

how long do you think that golf will last producing those sort of power outputs on a daily basis. yes it may only produce rediculous power on full throttle - but being realistic, the urge to use that power will be strong!!!! running that sort of output will probably put the life of the engine down to a matter of hours rather than years.

So how do these guys with tweaked 3.9 V8's get away with it, or even a standard 4.6 making 225bhp?

the bust stuff.............

ask how much trouble people have with r380 gearboxes and clutches when fitting a 2.8tgv engine.... and that is a LONG way from your hoped for outputs.

again, sorry for sounding negative - i'm trying not to be. I'm more of a cynical realist but i just fail to see how a 110bhp 4 pot low revving diesel can produce those epic figures or run on bangbang gas without going....... well bang.

[The Hatt]

sorry dude, wasnt having a go. What i was getting at is that to strengthen a tdi to be able to cope with such huge loads is going to require a fair bit of work, which you said you cant do and cant afford for someone else to do. As others have said, modified head bolts, probably an aftermarket crank and bolts, fully balanced, some serious head work to get gas in/out efficiently etcetcetc

There are plenty of people out there who have tweaked tdis and exceeded the EGT limits and melted/blown stuff. You WILL be exceeding the recommended EGT running funky gas at full throttle/boost and its only a matter of time before moving parts glow white and sticks to itself.

Coolio

BTW – people like yourself keep saying about how people bust cranks and the like, but so far not a single person has actually managed to show an example of this. And after searching I can’t find an example either.

Last night I started another thread about tdi failures and they all pretty much seem to be due to coolant leakage or similar. There was one crank failure but the owner admitted it was not a OEM crank.

I’m not trying to defy or ignore any issues with the tdi motors, but based on what’s been posted here there isn’t a single scrap of evidence to show they have weak area’s.

Please don’t take it the wrong way because I’m not disagreeing with you or anyone else. But in plain black and white there has been zero evidence posted, only supposition.

how long do you think that golf will last producing those sort of power outputs on a daily basis. yes it may only produce rediculous power on full throttle - but being realistic, the urge to use that power will be strong!!!! running that sort of output will probably put the life of the engine down to a matter of hours rather than years.

Why shouldn’t it last?

What basis is your claim that it will bust?

Again it’s not that I’m disagreeing or dis-believing you but I don’t see anything but opinion based on no fact.

To put another example, I know of people running supercharged LS1 V8’s producing about 500-550bhp up from a stock 350bhp all on stock internals an no major mods apart from the inclusion of the blower, tuning and exhaust mods.

But the engine is fully capable of this.

Back to the Golf, the same 90bhp motor is the basis of the factory 150bhp TDI motor. With the massive increase in power is this factory stock unit also likely to blow up? People chip these TDI’s to about 220bhp with no ill affects so why is it so unbelievable that nitrous won’t cause anymore harm?

Or another example. A stock TDI has a TURBO and produces double the power of a 2.25 n/a diesel as found in the Series motors. So tuned to these extremes with that dangerous turbo setup surely stock TDI’s are for less reliable than the old 2.25? If you went back in time say early 60’s and said you wanted to run a turbo diesel direct injection diesel engine in a Land Rover most would have laughed at you stating that it would be too unreliable. Today we know different.

again, sorry for sounding negative - i'm trying not to be. I'm more of a cynical realist but i just fail to see how a 110bhp 4 pot low revving diesel can produce those epic figures or run on bangbang gas without going....... well bang.

Well I might have been over excited and over estimated expected power gains. But that aside I still believe nitrous can offer some sensible gains in performance.

I’ve seen places selling hybrid water cooled turbo’s, different cams, ported heads for the tdi motors. These all cost a lot more than I’m looking at spending but claim to get near to 200bhp with the rest of the engine stock. A couple have posted in this very thread about the believe they could get 200bhp from a tdi.

Nitrous is just a different answer to the same question. Even a 40hp gain will be very noticeable.

So sorry if I’ve come across in not so good a light. But I’ll continue my research and post back results as and when.

[dollythelw]

Ls1 fiarly easy. GM offer a carb kit and I know of others that run Megasquirt on them. Also seems adapters can be bought to mate to a LT230. Shame if I did this I couldn't run at ARC events.

Carbs? now thats insane - even Roope (a die hard carb fan) has given up and finally renounced Satan got sensible by fitting injection to his 383

the stock LS injection system takes almost no persuasion to fire up in standalone mode, there really is no gain in using carbs IMO in an offroad car and especially on an LS, run it stock with a VATS bypas or for $350 you can have a stock PCM flashed for standalone use with any program you like from eco warrior all the way up to panda puree burning planet consumer, its cheaper to get a motor with the Delphi original injection than to fit Mega Squirt (and you wont have to go through all the setting up process).

yes you can buy adaptors to get to an LT230, cost effective ones cater to the auto market - manual costs more. but theres no reason why you cant talk nicely to fridge and use the stock auto 4L60E and drive it with paddle shift for £pennies, are ARC events that important to you or are there other series you could race in?

the Jag lump is physically much bigger than an LS

[newclear]

if people could get 200+bhp out of a standard LR tdi diesel lump for less than £1k, then most of us would have done it.

Any car can produce more power and usually easily and cheaply too. But for the very vast majority out there they don't. This logic simple doesn't stand.

5th Gear took a 90bhp diesel automatic Golf and fitted a nitrous kit to it. Then proceeded to race a Honda NSX, fair do in the vid the Golf lost but it kept with the NSX to about 100mph. That kit cost just over $1k to fit, but how many people do you know of that have diesel auto hatchbacks with near supercar performance credentials.

It's easy, it's cheap yet few seem to do it.

Hi,

You seem to have totally sidestepped the point here - 5th Gear did that to a GOLF, we are stating that it's not cheap or easy to do it to a Land Rover engine, specifically a 300tdi - these engines would almost be at home in a Massey Furgeson Plowing a field in deepest Somerset. They are far from a "Street Machine" engine used to easily tune. In my time browsing forums both here and quite a few other places it comes to my attention that VERY few bother to mod TDi's - or even Land Rover petrol's. This can only be that any that have looked at it have thought, after reading around the forums that it's too much hassle and expense.

This is also mostly due to around three quarters of Land Rover owners use them for off road duties, something they were designed for by Land Rover, so they rarely need anymore power for three quarters of their users. Some Challenge event goers may add an intercooler, but Nitrous Oxide is all but useless at a challenge event. Even most of those that use them exclusively on road as a commuting vehicle find a larger intercooler works well enough for normal use.

You also say you can't find any evidence of Failure's on the 300tdi - sorry but have you looked? There are plenty (so many I'm not going to do the searching for you and add links) of threads about "odd sounds" and "it's broke, what parts do I need?". The Cambelt is a very famous and well known week spot - you mention cars that have done over 100000 miles and no servicing will obviuosly fail - I've read of cars that are serviced as Land Rover stated in the manual and have had the Cambelt's fail do to a DESIGN flaw in 6000 miles, which is indeed very simple to fix (new idler pulley). Water Pumps fail, power steering pumps fail, alternator's fail and even the bearings in the belt tensioner fail - nothing to do with upping the power but still a weak point.

I recently swapped an old 2.5n/a Diesel for my new 300tdi (cheap... or so I thought) - I went from a nice £200 swap to an ever increasing spiral of costs due to a fail in the number 1 piston which I thankfully found before the Engine was fitted (the piston head had melted and the piston had scored the bore - rings were fine) then adding everything else I had to replace it suddenly became a £700 swap. Nothing is Land Rover's is ever straight forward, if you forget to factor in a failure or an expense... it WILL catch you out. I can indeed supply photo's of the melted piston if you would like. Not the bore however, as it has been rebored and is currently under the bonnet of my 90 (with a brand new Piston inside it).

The very reason nobody has actually answered your question 100% is that basically, nobody else has tried to add a WON kit to a 300tdi, most only have one vehicle, and don't want to see it go up in a large plume of smoke.

Now please do not take this as rubbishing your idea, but you seem to be suggesting that - during your 'research' - Land Rover engines will perform just as well when they are Modded as VW Engines - VW Engines are obviously designed for the road, Land Rovers are not. Before you say "300tdi's are in Discovery's - they are hardly the same as Defenders" - the same 300tdi that is in the Disco is in the Defender, and I have followed many Discovery's on laning days that will argue agianst the "Disco's are for the road" comment .

I would indeed like to see your progress and see just what the 300tdi is capable of, but after working with it and seeing it in bits, I wouldn't hold out much hope if I were you.

Cheers

Matt

[plasticbadger]

To my mind the big restriction in tuning diesel engines (particularily mechanical fuel injection) is the charge cooling aspect as well as the pump capacity problems already discussed. Discuss the following example:

The standard Toyota Landcruiser 4.5TD 24v engine puts out 212bhp and 274lb/ft. We're fitting a version of this engine in our boats which puts out 380bhp and 520lb/ft - thats a near 80% power increase and near 90% torque increase. All on a totally standard Toyota bottom end, only the turbo, fuel pump and intercooler are changed.

The key to this power increase is in the charge cooling. A standard factory intercooler will produce about 5 to 10% efficiency (reduction in inlet temperature compared to ambient temperature). A good aftermarket intercooler may raise this up to as much as 30%. The 380 bhp boat engine uses a huge sea water cooled charge cooler capable of running over 120% efficiency - that is the inlet air temperature is lower than the ambient air temperature.

The advantages are more air in each cycle, therefore more fuel. Lower combustion temperatures, therefore lower exhaust gas temperatures which in turn leads to higher fuel/air ratios possible before damage occurs.

So the way to apply this theory to a Landrover Tdi is to find a more efficient way of charge cooling (without taking the entire sea with you )

[The Hatt]

In my time browsing forums both here and quite a few other places it comes to my attention that VERY few bother to mod TDi's -

Hi and thanks for replying

I'd have to disagree though. Loads and loads of people tune tdi's else why would companies such as Jermey J Fearn, Allisport and Twisted Performance exist? Because there was a market for it maybe?

No I'm not claiming they are the pinnacle, but there are plenty of modified ones in use off road and on.

or even Land Rover petrol's. This can only be that any that have looked at it have thought, after reading around the forums that it's too much hassle and expense.

Well the "petrol" Land Rovers you refer too all run the Rover V8, the main stay of petrol heads and V8 fans in the UK for the past 35-40 years. You can even buy a 6.0 litre version if you have enough money. Plus several people running modded petrol V8's have responded to this thread already.

I'm really not wanting to sound like I'm arguing for the sake of it, but there are simply loads of modified Land Rovers, I know half a dozen or more people personally who run either modified tdi's, td5's or V8's in there Land Rovers.

The Cambelt is a very famous and well known week spot - you mention cars that have done over 100000 miles and no servicing will obviuosly fail - I've read of cars that are serviced as Land Rover stated in the manual and have had the Cambelt's fail do to a DESIGN flaw in 6000 miles, which is indeed very simple to fix (new idler pulley).

This was an issue with a select few 300TDI's and not common to every unit. As you say a simple fix, so it's hardly worth waving the white flags because someone mentions modding a totally different engine - 200TDI!

Nothing is Land Rover's is ever straight forward, if you forget to factor in a failure or an expense... it WILL catch you out.

Forget....

It was the whole point of this thread

The very reason nobody has actually answered your question 100% is that basically, nobody else has tried to add a WON kit to a 300tdi,

No I suspect that maybe no one has. But how am I supposed to know this?

Also I never asked if anyone had. But considering the great diversity of people, vehicles and interests I thought that maybe there where a few higher powered tdi's out there. Didn't have to be via nitrous, but there are other tuning routes and plenty of companies that sell the parts.

Also many seem to believe the tdi is a better/more suitable engine than a TD5 (although I believe this view may now be changing, and for good cause!) and the popularity of Comp Safari and other events.

Now please do not take this as rubbishing your idea

I'm not. And I hope you don't see my posts as insulting or anything else, they are just my response and no offense or harm is meant by them - no matter how badly I have phrased them, lol

- VW Engines are obviously designed for the road, Land Rovers are not.

eh???

Never ever seen a tdi in anything but road vehicle - meaning as a production unit and not a one off. It's not an aero, marine or industrial engine.

and I have followed many Discovery's on laning days that will argue agianst the "Disco's are for the road" comment .

WTF

Where have I said "Disco's are for the road". I'm running 33" frigging Simex Jungle Trekkers. Have dent in the side where I hit a tree trialling and brush painted bodywork.

[The Hatt]

To my mind the big restriction in tuning diesel engines (particularily mechanical fuel injection) is the charge cooling aspect as well as the pump capacity problems already discussed. Discuss the following example:

The standard Toyota Landcruiser 4.5TD 24v engine puts out 212bhp and 274lb/ft. We're fitting a version of this engine in our boats which puts out 380bhp and 520lb/ft - thats a near 80% power increase and near 90% torque increase. All on a totally standard Toyota bottom end, only the turbo, fuel pump and intercooler are changed.

The key to this power increase is in the charge cooling. A standard factory intercooler will produce about 5 to 10% efficiency (reduction in inlet temperature compared to ambient temperature). A good aftermarket intercooler may raise this up to as much as 30%. The 380 bhp boat engine uses a huge sea water cooled charge cooler capable of running over 120% efficiency - that is the inlet air temperature is lower than the ambient air temperature.

The advantages are more air in each cycle, therefore more fuel. Lower combustion temperatures, therefore lower exhaust gas temperatures which in turn leads to higher fuel/air ratios possible before damage occurs.

So the way to apply this theory to a Landrover Tdi is to find a more efficient way of charge cooling (without taking the entire sea with you )

Thanks for some interesting information.

Here's some info from WON:

Cooling Effects

Cooler intake air is denser and contains more oxygen atoms per cubic foot. So cooler air will allow more fuel to be burned and in turn, make more power. A 10 degree drop in temperature can add 1 to 1.5% power to an engine. Nitrous oxide boils at -129°F and it will begin to boil as soon as it is injected. This can cause an 80° or so drop in manifold air temperature. Now if we are dealing with say a 400 hp engine, we can see a gain of well over 30 hp from the cooling effect alone. This cooling effect also helps the engine deal with detonation.

What is Nitrous Oxide?

Chemical Properties

A nitrous oxide molecule is made up of 2 atoms of nitrogen and 1 atom of oxygen. By weight it is 36% oxygen (air is only 23.6% oxygen). At 70° F it takes 760 PSI of vapour pressure to hold nitrous in liquid form. The critical temperature is 97.7° F; at this temp the vapour pressure can no longer hold the nitrous in liquid form. At this point the nitrous turns gaseous and will be at 1069 PSI. As temperature rises further, so will pressure, but it will remain in gaseous form. If you intend to siphon liquid nitrous, it is important to keep the temperature below 97.7°. When liquid nitrous is released, it will go from 760 PSI to 14.7 PSI (normal atmospheric pressure). It will then begin to boil and rapidly expand; the pressure drop will cause the temperature to decrease. Nitrous boils at 129.1°F below zero.

[dollythelw]

Thanks for some interesting information.

Here's some info from WON:

This cooling effect also helps the engine deal with detonation.

erm......... kinda forgot flame front travel speeds the consequential effects on timing, ping ping, tinkle....... oh dear

although with a diesel I'd guess it should be more straightforward

[newclear]

Well the "petrol" Land Rovers you refer too all run the Rover V8

Not all Petrol Land Rovers are V8 - there were some (not many granted, and a lot older) 2.25 and 2.5 Petrol's, or at least they are in my service manual - never "seen" one, even in pictures...

This was an issue with a select few 300TDI's and not common to every unit. As you say a simple fix, so it's hardly worth waving the white flags because someone mentions modding a totally different engine - 200TDI!

I have seen 300tdi mentioned multiple times in this thread by you and others (I think, long day at work and if I'm mistaken I do appologise), sorry if your not using it - I picked up on it since I have experience with it specifically....

Forget....

It was the whole point of this thread

Nicely edited - I was trying to offer advice that the problems you could encounter are more than "internal" failures, external pumps and bearings also fail in a used engine. Not usually mentioned when people think of weaknesses in an engine. I said it becuase I did 'forget' and the costs mounted far beyond what I had budget'd for.

eh???

Never ever seen a tdi in anything but road vehicle - meaning as a production unit and not a one off. It's not an aero, marine or industrial engine.

Yes Land Rovers are road vehicles, but what I meant is, is the Engine in a VW Golf designed to cope with it being used to descend a hill? Is it designed to cope with being submerged in water? I doubt it, the 200/300tdi is a very "rough" sort of engine - hundreds of times better than the older generation of Diesels (which I replaced in my truck) but still considered "Agricultural"...

WTF

Where have I said "Disco's are for the road". I'm running 33" frigging Simex Jungle Trekkers. Have dent in the side where I hit a tree trialling and brush painted bodywork.

Not arguing for arguments sake? When did I say you "did" say that? - I have heard friends of mine say it, along with some of my family (until I showed them pictures of lane trips I've been on with Disco's). I have to be honest I didn't even know you drove a Disco . Not every comment on this thread is a direct attack at you , easy with the defensive jabs.

Cheers

Matt

[will_warne]

To my mind the big restriction in tuning diesel engines (particularily mechanical fuel injection) is the charge cooling aspect as well as the pump capacity problems already discussed. Discuss the following example:

The standard Toyota Landcruiser 4.5TD 24v engine puts out 212bhp and 274lb/ft. We're fitting a version of this engine in our boats which puts out 380bhp and 520lb/ft - thats a near 80% power increase and near 90% torque increase. All on a totally standard Toyota bottom end, only the turbo, fuel pump and intercooler are changed.

The key to this power increase is in the charge cooling. A standard factory intercooler will produce about 5 to 10% efficiency (reduction in inlet temperature compared to ambient temperature). A good aftermarket intercooler may raise this up to as much as 30%. The 380 bhp boat engine uses a huge sea water cooled charge cooler capable of running over 120% efficiency - that is the inlet air temperature is lower than the ambient air temperature.

The advantages are more air in each cycle, therefore more fuel. Lower combustion temperatures, therefore lower exhaust gas temperatures which in turn leads to higher fuel/air ratios possible before damage occurs.

So the way to apply this theory to a Landrover Tdi is to find a more efficient way of charge cooling (without taking the entire sea with you )

Spot on about charge coolers - totally right. However, multi pass (what you want for BIG power) charge coolers will be expensive. Those Toyota lumps are very, very good however I think it would be unwise to try power hikes like that on a standard bottom end Tdi especially with a few miles under its belt. You just hear too many stories of broken cranks and rods....

The first rule of tuning is you don't get anything for free and the second rule is that the costs increase exponentially the more power you're trying to get.

NOS is a nice idea but its not a cheap and easy way to power - you can't just add loads of power to a bog standard, high milage engine and expect it to last. At the end of the day just because the extra power is switchable doesn't mean you don't have to build it to take the power. If you want a 300 bhp Tdi to work you'll have to do exactly the same things to it no matter how you get the power. Yeah, it does have some bonuses if done right (like the cooling effect) but I prefer more traditional tuning first as when the little blue bottle's empty the fun's over.

[The Hatt]

erm......... kinda forgot flame front travel speeds the consequential effects on timing, ping ping, tinkle....... oh dear

although with a diesel I'd guess it should be more straightforward

If you've got a problem email Trev @ WONm and take it up with him for pity's sake.....

[The Hatt]

Not all Petrol Land Rovers are V8 - there were some (not many granted, and a lot older) 2.25 and 2.5 Petrol's, or at least they are in my service manual - never "seen" one, even in pictures...

Agreed there are a lot of other petrol Land Rovers. Supercharged Range Rover Sports for example, lol

Seriously though, even the old Series motors running the 2.25 still often try and get more power, exhaust mods, induction, bigger carbs or for many simply swap in a Rover V8. In the pursuit of more power/torque.

Nicely edited

Sorry didn't realised I edit anything..

- I was trying to offer advice that the problems you could encounter are more than "internal" failures, external pumps and bearings also fail in a used engine. Not usually mentioned when people think of weaknesses in an engine. I said it becuase I did 'forget' and the costs mounted far beyond what I had budget'd for.

Ok so noted and you are correct to consider them as part of the whole picture and I should not have blatantly commented as I did.

Although in the case of alternators and power steering pumps these would remain fairly constant even I opted for a n/a tuned 4.6 Rover V8 from a P38 Range Rover.

Yes Land Rovers are road vehicles, but what I meant is, is the Engine in a VW Golf designed to cope with it being used to descend a hill? Is it designed to cope with being submerged in water? I doubt it, the 200/300tdi is a very "rough" sort of engine - hundreds of times better than the older generation of Diesels (which I replaced in my truck) but still considered "Agricultural"...

In all seriousness I do know what you are getting at and surprise surprise I actually agree. I just disagreed with the comment that they weren't for road vehicles.

Not arguing for arguments sake? When did I say you "did" say that?

Ok I must have miss read your comment too. I thought you were comment on me having said that.

Coolio

[The Hatt]

I think it would be unwise to try power hikes like that on a standard bottom end Tdi especially with a few miles under its belt. You just hear too many stories of broken cranks and rods....

Hi and thanks for replying to the thread.

You along with a few others are citing broken cranks and rods as a problem. Now I'm not disputing this fact but so far the only exmaple I've found is of someone running a non LR OEM crank.

Do you know of any examples where these failures have actually occurred? I ask because I'm not researching this as a full time profession and so far my research does not support these conclusion.

The first rule of tuning is you don't get anything for free and the second rule is that the costs increase exponentially the more power you're trying to get.

I think this is only partly correct. Bolt on mods generally "free" HP which is lost by the setup, this generally places no extra strain on the engine itself. But yes you will reach a level where gaining a few more HP will cost a heck of a lot more. But considering the level I'm starting at I don't feel I've perhaps reached this level yet.

NOS is a nice idea but its not a cheap and easy way to power - you can't just add loads of power to a bog standard, high milage engine and expect it to last.

Why not? Loads and loads of other people do, and to a very wide variety of engines.

No I'm not claiming this is proof that all or any engine will be ok, but on the other hand I don't think such a generalised statement is any more accurate or representative of the real world either.

At the end of the day just because the extra power is switchable doesn't mean you don't have to build it to take the power.

I agree which is why I've been wanting to find out some real world examples of where these engine fail.

If you took a car petrol engine an added nitrous until it broke you'd probably expect it to be pistons, rods or head. So to up the anti you'd probably fit forged pistons and stronger rods.

So I guess a question is does a tdi motor have forged pistons as stock? Considering the high CR and the addition of a turbocharger I'd have thought so. But insight from others in this matter is welcome.

If you want a 300 bhp Tdi to work you'll have to do exactly the same things to it no matter how you get the power.

See above

Yeah, it does have some bonuses if done right (like the cooling effect) but I prefer more traditional tuning first as when the little blue bottle's empty the fun's over.

Well ok. But where does traditional tuning end and start? Or what is even traditional tuning? The tdi has a turbo which is hardly traditional.

Also if I want to add a high lift cam I'll need to account for higher rpms, more boost means possible a better turbo and increased pressure, a ported head is astronomically expensive with likely small gains.

I AM listing, so if you where to max out the traditional route what would you do to a tdi?

Bearing in mind I have already modified the exhaust, have a full width intercooler, upped boost and a tweaked injector pump.