Hybrid_From_Hell Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Hi all, 1st off I know my springs are a tad on the soft side, I may up the poundage a bit, but am trying this route as well / maybe 1st I have a tad of a problem on the rear suspension, whilst the poundage is a tad soft the ride height is spot on(ish) and for cross axles etc works lovely, however at anything other than a slow traverse the faster I go the more likely I am to find the bumpstops being used Currently using +5 Loop Top and Pin bottom My thoughts have been Increase poundage - may still do but I think I may loose some flex Fit twin rear shocks - complex and maeesy and if one forward one rear facing reduces flex Fit stronger damping shockers - possible but both expensive and limited options Fit shocks more upright * * fit shocks more upright seems to be curruebnt thinking, I think I would find there is more damping if I was to mount the shocker vertical throught the rear spring a la front stylee ? However a few questions. Anyone know the change in dimensions from going from it being a +5 at the facing forward to becoming upright, what soer of + ? would that be ? I am also pondering that when fully cross axled the shocker may end up touching / destroying isself on the inner spring / chassis spring mountings - anyone done this route that can advise ? Am I thinking right that the shock upright would give more damping than at the angle there are from factory ? Are there any other effects / thoughts re upright vs angled ? Are there other options I have missed other than the above ones ? Should I go ultimately if I use the inside shock route 'Pin Pin' 'Loop Loop' or a 'combo'..... which - and why ? Ta muchly Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve 90 Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 What make shocks are you using? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted October 13, 2008 Author Share Posted October 13, 2008 What make shocks are you using? Pro comp +5s Using Procomps as they were cheap and I was making suspension mods that may not have worked so didn't wnat to spend a fortune, they do work, so happier to buy better ones (Pro comps are soft IMHO compared to others I have used over the years) and also I wnated Loop Pin which with +5s limited me, Pin Pin opens a load more options as does Loop Loop, but I then have the mounting issues for a convertor within the spring, so Pin Pin is the mounts of choice at the mo ? What shocks are you thinking of then ? Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve 90 Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Pro comp +5sUsing Procomps as they were cheap and I was making suspension mods that may not have worked so didn't wnat to spend a fortune, they do work, so happier to buy better ones (Pro comps are soft IMHO compared to others I have used over the years) and also I wnated Loop Pin which with +5s limited me, Pin Pin opens a load more options as does Loop Loop, but I then have the mounting issues for a convertor within the spring, so Pin Pin is the mounts of choice at the mo ? What shocks are you thinking of then ? Nige I have pro comps on my road going Disco which are very soft, wollow badly and will bottom out. I used to have them on the 90 and found they were also soft and faded even more with hard use, the axles never seemed to be very well controlled. I felt that on rough hill climbs the axles would bounce/tramp and as a result the wheels would spend more time off the ground then on. I now have OME's and the truck feels much better with them. I never had trouble with the 90 bottoming tho but its quite light on the rear and the springs are firmish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Humphreys Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 so Pin Pin is the mounts of choice at the mo ?Nige Gwyn Lewis mounts. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6cyltdi Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 I think I'd be tempted to go for the stiffer springs however what about fitting spring spacers? You know the rubber towing ones...? They're cheap and would do what your after...? Even maybe just worth a try at £10 Heard some bad reviews but over the last few years I've had them on 2 vehicles for quite a while no problems...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharger Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 If you move the shocks to sit more vertical, you'll get additional damping but lose travel. If you know the angle of the shock at the moment and the angle you want to move it to, several people on here can do the counting on their fingers to work out the % difference in damping. Wacky idea #16 - if you want to improve the 'bump' damping but not affect your flexy performance, how about an extra single central shock mounted vertically above the diff? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landmannnn Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Another option might be hydraulic bump stops. They should take care of the last 4" of travel without compromising articulation. Often used with air-shox since their effective spring rate is very soft. Don't know how much though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted October 13, 2008 Author Share Posted October 13, 2008 Hmmm Anyone know of Hydraulic shocks that may fit a 90 with some jiggling ? Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
landmannnn Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Hendrix had a long topic about his build about 6 months ago, I think he used them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young bobtail Rhys Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Nige, I have exactly the same problem as you. I am using the rough country's and on the slow stuff they are great, flex really well and allow good traction to the wheels. However, as soon as the speed increases they can get a bit of a bonuce on and the car feels very unstable. It will also, wallow alot and bottom out. Personally, I think it must be down to the angle that in rear dampers are at, as the front is perfect, soft but firm enough if that makes sense!?! I am thinking of going down the old man emu route atm, although I would like to know the verdict or outcome of this discusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddy Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Nige if you want to have eye eye you can make a sot of 'C' shaped bracket with an M12 through the base that sits in the shock bush hole on the axle of your with me? If you run shocks upright have you got room inside? Will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbocharger Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Don't forget the front springs have an engine to hold up, and the shocks have that same engine to decrease the natural frequency of the system, probably below the frequency that you'll excite the system at offroad. You'll need different systems at each end of the car - in fact, the angle of the shocks probably considers that exact point. Anyone know the corner weights for a standard LR? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young bobtail Rhys Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Just thinking though, I have a bobtailed rangie with no seats in the back etc. Does this mean like a 90, that it will be hard to balance in terms of damping? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honitonhobbit Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Nige I run PC's on the 100". I find that they are slightly too hard with the springs I run, but with high cyclic movement they become too soft due to heat build up. I need a remopte resevoir shock for better cooling - having run RR shocks before I know how well they work! Generally OME shocks are pants but they make a superb remote resvoir system - OEM LTS I think. What I would really like (and have used in anger) is the Pro-Comp MX6 - not only very bling which is so important, but remote res and adjustable. Nice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted October 13, 2008 Author Share Posted October 13, 2008 When I did my suspension I had the 90 fully kitted up weighed on a weighbridge .... ....all of it, ....then front only ....then rear only, .....and I had a guesstimated Axle weight to then give me unsprung weights, the srings were then calculated using LR90s Spring calculator against a target height and this then limited me to a few springs only - eso as I would only use genuine where the lengths and poundgaes are both known and accuarte, I had a few to chose and went for the softer. On my old racers I ran 8 shocks, my mate has a set of olins at over £500 a corner, I have a sort of understanding between springs shocks rebound and damping, but I do know for instance the difference a set of Koni adjustables can make over say a cheap soft shock like the Procomps. I am looking still at compromise, I can get the front springs to dislocate quite an amount, and yet the same problem is also there but maybe not as bad, its also easier to "Play Mods" with the rear axle. I am at the moment pooring through some data sheets I have ammassed over the years on shocks, I also think going Pin Pin will allow more flex than Loop Pin, and if I go Loop Loop I think on big twists the shocks mounting will be under immense strains and prob shear off the eyes. Pin Pin means a minor Mod to my home made mountings (these are different locations to std) and I have reduced Bumpsstops to allow further rise, and a set of Jezs bent arms plus shaped radius arm washers modified bushes and a few other tweaks on top, I still think the procomps whilst good value for money are F soft shocks, so the hunt I think for a similar dimensioned stiffer of even adjustable shock is a strong contender - this just amy be enough, if not then a next step up on the poundages I have up my sleev as I did go softest with the first purchase... Keep the thoughts coming Anyone have a linky to the hydraulic bumpstops thread ? Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young bobtail Rhys Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 I have got some slightly sifter springs on the back of my rangie now and all that it seems to be doing is launching the back end up faster and not letting the damper do its proper job. A set of old man emu's are looking like my next option and unlike you Nige, I don't compete so there isn't so much worrying here about the perfect setup for my off road larking about. I leave my real suspension complications to my motocross.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
will_warne Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Nige, been where you were, looked at a few options (even mocked some up) and eventually decided coil overs mounted vertically was the best solution. Vertically mounted will, as Turbo says, reduce you're travel - a little back of an envelope pythagoras will prove it to you. However, it will give you a higher damping rate so it may be a worthwhile compromise. You're big issue will be that you will have more issues mounting the shocks as the normal position would be on top of the axle casing. You will, therefore, have to seriously play with your arches. One other option I looked at was mounting shocks along the line of the axle meeting in the centre of the vehicle. One advantage with this setup is that you can set it up to give greater damping on bump (and maximum just as you reach the bumpstops if the shock is perpendicular to the axle centre line) which is the opposite to what will be happening at the moment - this should help body control on a vehicle like yours with very soft springs. Airbumps will also help control roll but you will loose some bump travel. You can also do all sorts of stuff with centrally mounted springs and shocks but that starts to get very complicated. KISS and all that..... As far as which shocks to go for I'd say they've got to be eye/eye and I'd seriously think about ProComp MX6-Rs - they are lovely bits of kit and not really silly money. I had a set of 12" ones in my possession for a while and I was really impressed with the quality. However, I then decided to push the boat out hence the vapourtastic setup sat in the workshop - totally overkill for the UK but essential for higher speed stuff. Out of interest what is your suspension frequency front and back??? For handling you really want the back to be a little higher than the front to allow it to react quicker over bumps and stop the tale getting kicked up too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddy Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Nige if you make the bracket up as i described the axle can rotate around the shock so no fear of ripping eyes off etc, hell you could put one at each end, attach a little motor to them and make them spin round so you can easily inspect/clean them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discojmz Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 as for the eye to eye/ pin to pin issue, nigh on all the crawler builds ive read through on pirate use eye2eye with their coilovers and some pretty darned extreme flex and twist with no issues. perhaps look at how they achieve it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted October 14, 2008 Author Share Posted October 14, 2008 It may just be I head a head full of cold (man flue yer know Suz has what I have but as I said to her thats a cold you have vs my man flu ) but I am struggling to visualise some of whats above ? Ciuld you do a fag packet drawing Will, Muddy, please If I go eye eye then do / will I need like mates racer eyes that have bearing to allow movement / twist, if the eyes are as say a standard shock on full droop I can see the shock wanting to twist make huge forces into the shock and shearing an eye off he has almost what could be described as a rose joint in the eyes of his shock with a bolt through, which do have a certain "Rattle" ... Interesting the views lean towrads eye eye vs pin pin ? Keep the thoughts coming please Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted October 14, 2008 Author Share Posted October 14, 2008 NigeI run PC's on the 100". I find that they are slightly too hard with the springs I run, but with high cyclic movement they become too soft due to heat build up. I need a remopte resevoir shock for better cooling - having run RR shocks before I know how well they work! Generally OME shocks are pants but they make a superb remote resvoir system - OEM LTS I think. What I would really like (and have used in anger) is the Pro-Comp MX6 - not only very bling which is so important, but remote res and adjustable. Nice David, I am answering your sepeartely as I have some specific Qs on it ^^^ above I thought RR shocks were more for higher speed work - a la comp safari where the oil / contents get worked really hard and thus allows additional cooling (we used to have are old shocks on the racer boil sometimes on hard laps ) I am unsure what you do exactly on your LR but I didn't think it was speed eventing ??, so as such I was suprised and intrigued to read a suggestion on RR shocks ? There is obvioulsy a reason you are pointing towards these that I could be eductid on please - is it something to do with the fact that they are RR shocks, or the added capacity or the fact they are adjustable ?? or a combo, and are all RR shocks adjustable or just some, I have normally steered away from these as they can be frightening expensive, but I wouldn't rule them out now maybe ? - (I used to run a racer on a miniscule budget ) I am worried obvioulsy at spending bigger money and then finding I have it wrong, so hence the reasearch now, also for everyone, anyone got any neat pics / web links to mountings solutions should I end up eye2eye ? Generally OME shocks are pants but they make a superb remote resvoir system - OEM LTS I think. do you mean OME as Old Man Emu ? I was loking at N73 shocks last night these are almost as much travel as a +5 Procomp, I will do a search on the other you mentioned. Keep it coming all Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 Nigel Ohlins are based in Alton they will make a suspention to suit anything you want it to do. Aurok My be a bit of over kill for what you use it for but the difrance would massive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 Petal ran a "conventional" landy set up (damper down the inside of the front springs and outside the rear) she handled pretty sweetly, seemed good on slow stuff and had to be worked very hard before the limits were reached, only major difference to you was setting up the suspension to be unbalanced - not fashionable but very functional eye-eye is easy, as suggested before a U channel drilled and reamed to provide a bolt hole and another bolt beamed through the bottom to secure through to the old "pin" hole in the axle, the rear axle lower mounts were scratch built to suit "eye" ends from the outset but previous versions used the same convertor, the front axle upper mounts were "stretched to suit" cheapo tubular towers I found kicking about, with a couple of plates and bosses welded in - piece of cake IMO eyes allow the use of a wider range of potentially stronger and more diallable shocks - providing you use a shock that has spherical joints and mis-alingment spacers at each end then flex isnt an issue.. add hydro/air/whichever flavour you like bump stops and system flexibility is further enhanced I spose the question is what do you want the car to do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orgasmic Farmer Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 Any help? LINK (though I guess you've read it already!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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