Badger90 Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 hi all. right last week i thought is it possible to fit a torque converter to a manual gearbox? just googled it. some automotive engineering student has allso the same brain wave.. but i thought more and you will need to have somthing that will disconnect the drive of the torque converter so your inable to change gear. i remember on a one a farm i worked one 2-3 years back had a jcb loader that had a "dump clutch system" (if that is what it is called) but it had a toque conveter, manual gear stick but a button on the stick that you need to press when changing gears? i am wondering if that system can be put in a land rover or other 4x4? anyone on here a automatic/manual know it all? im very intersted in finding out about this? cheers sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusty_wingnut Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Hydro drive similar to whats fitted to some Case backhoes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Bates Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 JCB wheeled diggers (2CX,3CX,4CX) telehandlers, loading shovels and most modern forward tip dumpers (Terex,Benford etc) use the same system. Maybe you could find a parts diagram for one of these on the internet somewhere to see whats involved? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbarton Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 They used to fit pre-selector gearboxes on some (pre-war) cars & busses, these had a fluid flywheel which sounds a bit more like a torque converter. You selected the next gear before you needed it, and when you wanted to change into that gear you operated the gearchange pedal. Apparently you could select reverse whilst travelling forwards, blip the pedal and the car would slow down, stop and go backwards all by itself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoggyN Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Hydro drive similar to whats fitted to some Case backhoes? Yes, it is possible. Citroen used to do it, they called it C-Matic, you had a gear lever but no clutch pedal. I suspect there are others. Some Honda autoboxes are essentially a manual (i.e. not epicyclic) box with a torque converter and electronic control. The 'dump clutch system' you refer to sounds like a 'pre-selector' gearbox where you put the gear lever in the gear you want next and it only changes when you press the gear change pedal (or button). Some buses use this system (or used to). It was also used in some wheeled armoured vehicles too. It's wierd until you get used to it. Having driven manual, C-Matic, pre-selector and full auto I can rcommend the latter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbarton Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 ......The 'dump clutch system' you refer to sounds like a 'pre-selector' gearbox where you put the gear lever in the gear you want next and it only changes when you press the gear change pedal (or button). Some buses use this system (or used to). .......... I never knew that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddy Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 The telehandler i drive has a 4spd box, no clutch pedal and a forward and reverse lever. To go forwards you just push the fwd/rvs lever forward and set off just like an auto, to change up a gear you press a button the gear lever and change gear just like a ,manual then release the button to take up drive again, About 99% of the other plant i have driven uses the same system. it also means you can go as fast backwards as you can forwards. I would guess that a system such as this could be very handy offroad. Will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Bates Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 The system Sam mentioned on the JCB works as an electrically opperated clutch, you push the button on the gear knob then change gear on the stick and release the button, the clutch or "dump" pedal has a micro switch to do the same instead of a cable or hydraulic system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoggyN Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 I never knew that! Yes you did, you wrote it down! (I started my post before yours went up - but SWMBO insisted I eat my dinner ) The Ferrets I drove had a five speed pre-selector together with a forward/reverse lever. Rear visibility was mirrors only and the steering wheel was upside down so I doubt anyone got into top gear going backwards! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger90 Posted January 26, 2009 Author Share Posted January 26, 2009 The system Sam mentioned on the JCB works as an electrically opperated clutch, you push the button on the gear knob then change gear on the stick and release the button, the clutch or "dump" pedal has a micro switch to do the same instead of a cable or hydraulic system. its feels like it has torque converter in it? how straing.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Bates Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 It is fitted with a torque converter which is why you can leave it in gear on the main gear stick then push the shuttle leaver to move forwarns/backwards , i was just explaning the changing gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger90 Posted January 26, 2009 Author Share Posted January 26, 2009 hi all. right last week i thought is it possible to fit a torque converter to a manual gearbox? just googled it. some automotive engineering student has allso the same brain wave.. but i thought more and you will need to have somthing that will disconnect the drive of the torque converter so your inable to change gear. i remember on a one a farm i worked one 2-3 years back had a jcb loader that had a "dump clutch system" (if that is what it is called) but it had a toque conveter, manual gear stick but a button on the stick that you need to press when changing gears? i am wondering if that system can be put in a land rover or other 4x4? anyone on here a automatic/manual know it all? im very intersted in finding out about this? cheers sam jesus never new there was that meany gearbox systems about.. yeah the standard jcb gear box (one i used this harvest) got the turn switch (nearly all have that now) for gears and foward and back on the leaver.. a mate has just informed me that one raining bored day at thurlow nunns they did it (converter in manual) and he said it worked a treat but took a awfull lot of power out and also if you have got a to big of a converter it might pull your box apart? it sounds a great idea.. wouldnt mind trying ot on a old rustyed up discovery and it works well maybe do it my truck.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clbarclay Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 Why lose the clutch, Fendt (german tractor manufacture) did fitted this to tractors several years ago under the name of Turbomatic. For decades material handlers and a lot of other industrial machines have used a torque converter combined with a manual gearbox. At home We have a couple of Michigan 35aws loading shovels similar to this one below which have a Clark transmission, built in the 1960's These have a torque converter combined with 4 forward speeds and 4 reverse speeds. The forwards/reverse was selected by a powershuttle which ment you simply pushed/pulled a leaver to change form forwards to revers and a couple of high/low ratios to change speed. Unlike your average land rover auto box these Clark transmissions were so strong you change direction at full throttle and it would just be the driver that suffered. The axles on one of the ones at home have all but died, but its taken 50+ years abuse and poor maintenace to achive that. Over the years this setup has been refined a little, the Sanderson telehandaler at home (made in 1994) and our neighbours Matbro teleshift both have a 4 speed manual gearbox combined with a torque converter and a forwards/revers power shuttle. The 'dump clutch' effectively just diesngadges the forwards/reverse clutch pack in neutral so you can then change gears with the gearstick. More recntly telescopic handlers have been produced with hydrostatic transmissions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pat_pending Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 While i can't fault the idea in the OPs thinking, adding a torque converter to a L/R manual transmission is a complete non starter. A torque converter is not a self contained unit, it works as part of the auto box and requires a pumped, regulated pressure oil feed and stator support that's contained within the front of the box. Even if you could engineer that onto a manual box it would require so much work. Adapting an existing plant/agricultural transmission would be difficult because for starters they're huge and heavy, also they're designed/geared to work with engines that have half the rpm range of a L/R engine and are installed in vehicles that have top speed of about 20mph. Hydrostatic transmissions would work well on an off roader. But a pure hydrostat is inefficient and again has limits as to top speed. A hydrostat addition to a manual is possible, in fact it's an option on some Unimogs, but you'd need a vehicle of that size to mount it all. There is nothing wrong with innovative thinking in engineering, but before you start looking for a solution you have to have a problem that requires "solving". Pointless over complicated "solutions" to non existent "problems" are the realm of computer software writers My 2p worth anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbarton Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 ..........Pointless over complicated "solutions" to non existent "problems" are the realm of computer software writers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger90 Posted January 26, 2009 Author Share Posted January 26, 2009 While i can't fault the idea in the OPs thinking, adding a torque converter to a L/R manual transmission is a complete non starter. A torque converter is not a self contained unit, it works as part of the auto box and requires a pumped, regulated pressure oil feed and stator support that's contained within the front of the box. Even if you could engineer that onto a manual box it would require so much work.Adapting an existing plant/agricultural transmission would be difficult because for starters they're huge and heavy, also they're designed/geared to work with engines that have half the rpm range of a L/R engine and are installed in vehicles that have top speed of about 20mph. Hydrostatic transmissions would work well on an off roader. But a pure hydrostat is inefficient and again has limits as to top speed. A hydrostat addition to a manual is possible, in fact it's an option on some Unimogs, but you'd need a vehicle of that size to mount it all. There is nothing wrong with innovative thinking in engineering, but before you start looking for a solution you have to have a problem that requires "solving". Pointless over complicated "solutions" to non existent "problems" are the realm of computer software writers My 2p worth anyway. haha yeah i do get your point. i always thought that the converter has it own supply of oil and not fed by the gearbox.. show how much i know. yeah i dpoke to a mate that works for a agricultural dealers/fitters and when they had no work they tryed this idea.. he said it worked well but the converter drew so much power out the engine. they still have the truck and they ended up puting a 1:6 ratio transfer box on to compensate for the loss (well some of it) and i wouldnt even atempt on adapting any plant/agricultural machine. 1, adapting a £120.000 300HP tractor is just a waste 2, the shear wait and size. i might be worth the swaeat and blood if you where building a challenge truck, which i have plans to! i fancy a challenge lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Train Posted January 26, 2009 Share Posted January 26, 2009 I played around with this idea in the late 80's. My proposed solution was to cut the front end off an auto box so it included the torque converter, the bell housing, the input shaft, the oil pump behind it and the primary shaft to the gears. A short housing is attached to the back of the sawn off auto box that will contain the ATF and carry drive out the back to a drive flange and is shaped like an engine back plate to suit the manual box. The auto box primary shaft output flange is then used to drive a drive plate (like the standard flywheel but with as little weight as possible) with the clutch attached. The manual gear box is then attached to the clutch and the engine back plate as if it was mating to an engine. My sketches looked ok but added around 18" to an already long transmission. Torque converters are the sort of things added to manula gearboxes on commercial vehicles. Heavy haulage lorries sometimes specified it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 This is probably a dumb idea for lots of reasons, but rather than adding it in front of the box, what about adding it to the output? That's easily done by fashioning a split input gear for the LT230 so the gearbox output goes via the TC and back into the box (a-la overdrive/underdrive) and then you keep the existing clutch as it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThreeSheds Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 The Ferrets I drove had a five speed pre-selector together with a forward/reverse lever. Rear visibility was mirrors only and the steering wheel was upside down so I doubt anyone got into top gear going backwards! A bit of a ramble - but ends up back on-topic... The ability to pre-select first and then screech to a halt, slam it in reverse and shoot off backwards going up through the gears with the commander shouting instructions (left a bit... slower... faster.. right... RIGHT!!! OMG!! ) has saved many lives according to my father - including his: While out on a summer drive through France in his Daimler Scout car, my father got a bit lost (not a common happening with him..) and, upon seeing three Shermans in a field cunningly disguised as haystacks - he decided to drive over and ask where he was. The only hitch with this plan was that the three Shermans had moved in during a raid in the night and were hiding from, but observing, an 88 in the woods 1/2 a mile away - awaiting infantry support before a planned assault. As my father drove across the field the first shell thundered past a few feet in front of the car - apparently due to the Scout Car's small size the Germans often had difficulty judging it's speed and hence the aim-off. Well... As you might expect - all hell broke loose: Dad's driver braked and hit reverse and started accelerating back towards the gate, the Shermans opened up (guns pre-laid he supposed) setting fire to the haystacks and the next 88 shell missed by a mile since the scout car was by now doing 20mph the wrong way! The 88 crew then turned their attention to the Shermans (which all managed to get their engines going and reach cover without getting hit - probably because the German position was laid so as to cover the cross-road near by and required some adjustment to bring the gun to bear). Anyway - this distraction was lucky for my father since his driver had by then lost control of the car and put it in the ditch some 20 yards adrift of the target gate The car was quickly abandoned (it was in plain view of the 88) and Dad and his crew got a lift back on another car in his troop. After the 88 position was taken it was reported the the car was still their and in good condition and so Dad was sent to recover it and upon arriving they found the car abandoned in the middle of the field - the assumption was the the Germans could not work the pre-select gearbox and change-pedal combination. Having driven a Ferret myself I can vouch for the system taking a little getting used to even when you have been instructed how they work! It also gets 'interesting' when changing regularly between a pre-select and a normal vehicle Rog p.s. Earlier a 'fluid flywheel' was mentioned - according to my understanding this IS a torque converter but doesn't have any lock-up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
task Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 My father has a 1949 Daimler with the fluid-flywheel preselect gearbox. The gearbox is extremely heavy to lift but it's interesting to drive, very smooth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lasse Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 For decades material handlers and a lot of other industrial machines have used a torque converter combined with a manual gearbox. At home We have a couple of Michigan 35AWS loading shovels similar to this one below which have a Clark transmission, built in the 1960's These have a torque converter combined with 4 forward speeds and 4 reverse speeds. The forwards/reverse was selected by a powershuttle which ment you simply pushed/pulled a leaver to change form forwards to revers and a couple of high/low ratios to change speed. These Clark transmissions were so strong you change direction at full throttle and it would just be the driver that suffered. The axles on one of the ones at home have all but died, but its taken 50+ years abuse and poor maintenace to achive that. clbarclay Hi ! I was out searching on the internet about Michigan-35A / 35AWS and ended up here ! I have almost find nothing about Michigan 35 out on the internet. If you have a couple of these at home, please tell me as much as possible about them and send some pictures. Between what years were they made ? Were can i find information about them ? Pictures ? Best regards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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