Events and vehicle construction under MSA rules...

[andyb]

I thought that I should start a new thread as this.....

I'm building a rear engine'd moon buggy challenge vehicle at the moment, but I know there isn't a hope in hell of being able to use it for "Racing" under MSA regs... as the design is very unconventional... not how the book says...

.....raises an interesting question....well to me anyway

On the permit application form from the MSA there is a box to tick for "Winch Challenge". I would therefore assume that an event run under this permit would also have to have vehicle entered that conform to the blue book. So would a challenge vehicle not have to have a cage that conforms to blue book regs? Or are there various 'grades' of cage? Speed, non-speed. etc

[dirtydiesel]

I think rob needs to spend a lot longer looking through the blue book and talking to an experianced msa scruteneer.

From my interpretation of the cage regs as long as it's not a timed speed event there is no requirement for any cage unless sr's state othewise

[Dave W]

There is no "Winch Challenge" tick box.

Roll cage regs are easy. If the event permit type requires a roll cage then it must conform with the Blue Book regs. If the event SRs require a roll cage, it must comply with MSA regs. If the permit type doesn't require a roll cage and the event SRs say something like "roll over protection recommended" then the cage doesn't need to meet MSA regs.

There are no "grades" of cage, basically if a cage doesn't comply with MSA regs then it's not a cage at all as far as the regs are concerned.

Challenge events are currently a combination of three permit types (see my first paragraph) so cage requirements will vary depending on which three events the organisers are combining. If they choose an event such as "point to point", like the XTC, then MSA roll cages are mandatory.

Next year, if approved, there will actually be a Challenge permit and there are currently suggestions that this permit will require an MSA scrutineer to attend.... which will wake a few people up ! Roll cages won't be required for this permit although I suspect a lot of organisers will require them in their regs and, if they do, the cage will need to meet MSA regs.

[dirtydiesel]

I think a minimum of drawing Q6a should be mandetory.

[Dave W]

I think a minimum of drawing Q6a should be mandetory.

I couldn't disagree more.

What about daily driver challenges ?

What about challenges that don't include winching ?

You need to remember that the challenge permit is there to cover EVERY type of competition, not just a bunch of tray backs beating on trees and rolling through sections to see who can break the most bits...

The MSA regs are there to provide a baseline for the event, it really is down to the event organisers to determine if a roll cage is required and to set the event out accordingly. To do otherwise will stop events from running that have no need for roll cages.

[andyb]

There is no "Winch Challenge" tick box.

OK, so it says Challenge Event http://www.msauk.org/uploadedfiles/msa_for...application.pdf

.....but this is what I had assumed that AWDC/Howlin Wolf were using for there event permits.

I'm also not sure about

Next year, if approved, there will actually be a Challenge permit

as the permit application document is dated 01/08... the footer of each page says PERMAPP01/08. Perhaps this isn't related. (shrug)

[Dave W]

OK, so it says Challenge Event http://www.msauk.org/uploadedfiles/msa_for...application.pdf

.....but this is what I had assumed that AWDC/Howlin Wolf were using for there event permits.

There's more to it than that, the challenge permit is defined as a combination of up to three off road permit types and, as part of the permit process you need to choose which three. Oddly the only event type you really want to avoid is the only one that mentions winches as that's aimed at a static vehicle winching an object !

Most clubs are using a combination of trial, team recovery and orienteering but it varies depending on the type of event they want to run. Our annual "daily driver" type challenge combines trial, orienteering and gymkhana permits but we don't allow GPS, winches etc..

Hopefully it will all be made simpler in 2010 with the new challenge permit although, again, this is still a general permit that allows all levels of challenge event, winching or not.

[andyb]

There's more to it than that, the challenge permit is defined as a combination of up to three off road permit types

<snip>

Hopefully it will all be made simpler in 2010 with the new challenge permit although, again, this is still a general permit that allows all levels of challenge event, winching or not.

As there is me thinking that the MSA had kept abreast of events for once

[Dave W]

As there is me thinking that the MSA had kept abreast of events for once

The "three permit" permit was, in my view, introduced as a quick fix to meet the demands of clubs like ours that wanted to run challenge events at a club level, I think that was introduced in 2002. in 2001 we tried to run a challenge style event under a trials permit and spent ages in discussions with the MSA about how we could actually run the event within the regs.

The new permit/event definition is aimed at simplifying and clarifying things to make sure the permit better matches the events. The new permit has come about thanks primarily to the work of the AWDC coming up with a permit definition that covers pretty much all aspects of current challenge events but at the same time loose enough to allow events with different flavours to run under it without having to "stretch" the rules a bit.

I think the only reason it's taken so long to get a specific permit is simply because nobody managed to put a description together to describe what a challenge event actually is !

[andyb]

The new permit has come about thanks primarily to the work of the AWDC coming up with a permit definition that covers pretty much all aspects of current challenge events

I had suspected as much I had just thought that it had had already happened hence the "Challenge Event" tick box on the current permit application form.

[Dave W]

I had suspected as much I had just thought that it had had already happened hence the "Challenge Event" tick box on the current permit application form.

My only concern with the new permit is if they decide to go ahead with the MSA scrutineer requirement. It'd be OK for clubs like the AWDC (who's representative was OK with it) that no doubt have members who are registered as MSA scrutineers but for smaller clubs like ourselves that are running closed to members events where the finances are already pretty tight it could make the event untenable. The cost of the scrutineer could easily cost as much as the land for the event.

[andyb]

for smaller clubs like ourselves that are running closed to members events where the finances are already pretty tight it could make the event untenable. The cost of the scrutineer could easily cost as much as the land for the event.

As you can tell from below I run the trials for SCOR.......and I know exactly what you mean.

[najw]

My only concern with the new permit is if they decide to go ahead with the MSA scrutineer requirement. It'd be OK for clubs like the AWDC (who's representative was OK with it) that no doubt have members who are registered as MSA scrutineers but for smaller clubs like ourselves that are running closed to members events where the finances are already pretty tight it could make the event untenable. The cost of the scrutineer could easily cost as much as the land for the event.

I'm not aware that there are any requirements in the new Challenge regs for an MSA Scrutineer.

It's not as if they have to look for MSA spec cages so I can't see why it would be necessary

[Rob Butler]

I think rob needs to spend a lot longer looking through the blue book and talking to an experianced msa scruteneer.

From my interpretation of the cage regs as long as it's not a timed speed event there is no requirement for any cage unless sr's state othewise

Sorry?... I don't really get where you are coming from, either that or you misunderstood what I was saying...

When I said that, I was simply saying that the buggy I am building to use for "challenge events" (of which there is no requirements for an MSA spec cage) Would not have a hope in hell of passing an MSA inspection, simply down to the design of the chassis... but personally, I think it would be perfectly safe fine for XTC, just NOT comp safari... This is where the rule book becomes a pain in the butt...

just my 2p's worth... maybe I am wrong, this is just what I have been told by an MSA scruteneer, and TBH I haven't studied the book work for word as I am only building it for challenge events...

Rob

[FridgeFreezer]

This seems to be going the way of previous discussions wherever challenge rules and/or the MSA get mentioned, there seems to be no way of squaring the circle between what are effectively professional motorsport regulations, and grass roots off-roaders on a budget.

I wonder how other motorsports get along- things like banger racing, grasstrack, hillclimbs, track days, run-what-you-brung etc. as the organisers must by default have similar responsibilities to H&S as any other.

[Rob Butler]

I wonder how other motorsports get along- things like banger racing, grasstrack, hillclimbs, track days, run-what-you-brung etc. as the organisers must by default have similar responsibilities to H&S as any other.

I did wonder that also...

[MrHT]

Bangers and such a like run on the principle of the roll protection recomended type route ish. I think that as long as the regs arn't saying thet cages are manditory we shouldn't have a problem. but if the rules state that cages are manditory then yes I think we should be looking at msa scrutineers.

[Giles tout terrain]

This seems to be going the way of previous discussions wherever challenge rules and/or the MSA get mentioned, there seems to be no way of squaring the circle between what are effectively professional motorsport regulations, and grass roots off-roaders on a budget.

.

I went to the last challenger 4x4 event, There weren't that many cars that looked grass root! Looked bloody expensive! cheaper to go comp safari racing!

[Daan]

Bangers and such a like run on the principle of the roll protection recomended type route ish. I think that as long as the regs arn't saying thet cages are manditory we shouldn't have a problem. but if the rules state that cages are manditory then yes I think we should be looking at msa scrutineers.

I dont think a bangerrace is actually timed, it is the last man running isn't it?

On most other types of motorsport, like rally and racing for example it is MSA. This does not apply to one make series for some strange reason.

I am still not aware what the big problem is with MSA regs: they are not hard or expensive to achieve, its just that people dont want to be tied to rules and invent there own ideas, such as bend backstays.

most mainhoops used in challenge trucks are ok, so its not a big job to update the backstays to comply. And to rob butler specifically: you are building a new car, so the opportunity is there to comply. Instead you are questioning the rules, which have been there for ages. Seems all a bit wasted effort in my mind.

Daan

[Rob Butler]

And to rob butler specifically: you are building a new car, so the opportunity is there to comply. Instead you are questioning the rules, which have been there for ages. Seems all a bit wasted effort in my mind.

Daan

I have said a fair few times... this vehicle is being built for challenge events... not racing... So I am building it how I want it, not how the book says....

however, Obviously I have paid attention to material size and spec with regard to the book... but no the design.

Rob

[dirtydiesel]

I have said a fair few times... this vehicle is being built for challenge events... not racing... So I am building it how I want it, not how the book says....

however, Obviously I have paid attention to material size and spec with regard to the book... but no the design.

Rob

Why, don't you like tried and tested designs that are well proven to save lives?

[Rob Butler]

nope... if nobody ever tried anything new, then the sport would never move forward...

This is being built more like a US rock racer chassis... which is a well proven design...

[Dave W]

I'm not aware that there are any requirements in the new Challenge regs for an MSA Scrutineer.

It's not as if they have to look for MSA spec cages so I can't see why it would be necessary

I'll PM the info to you and maybe you can try and bring pressure to bear and nip it in the bud while it's still in committee stage.

[markyb]

rob interested in seeing your build :-)

What i remember is the MSA inspectors were always there to help out - as in they would advise what you would need to do to get a log book for your cages.

but i they woud like yo to have followed the basic principles,

Few years back when we run low level challenges we used to use a combination of treasure hunt /team recovery paid the £6 a vech to make sure we had the full cover. MSA were making thing differcult and i think the reason they aren`t in a rush to change the permit is they dont have a lot of time for 4x4 club level things as it costs them money. they went as far as making claims differcult etc etc.

just my view on it

[najw]

MSA were making thing differcult and i think the reason they aren`t in a rush to change the permit is they dont have a lot of time for 4x4 club level things as it costs them money. they went as far as making claims differcult etc etc.

Rubbish, the MSA makes more out of off-road than many other disciplines, they certainly issue more off-road permits than most.

The reason it has taken a while is because nobody could be ar*ed to sit down write regulations and submit them for consideration.