On board Expedition water tanks & purification

[Godlykepower]

I have always planned on fitting a water tank in the back of the 90 for the trip, and originally envisaged a "T" shaped tank that would sit up against the bulkhead & extend over each wheel box, with the "T" bit going to the floor.

I saw these tanks at Billing this weekend at the Outback Import stand, but could not for the life of me find someone to help me

This got me thinking about my other options...

I quite like the idea of a tank that would be no higher than the height of the wheel boxes and would fit perfectly between them. I see after a little research that Front Runner make these tanks, and are sold by Frogs Island.

But, does anyone know of anywhere in the UK that I could get something cheaper, perhaps custom-made if necessary. I would really like to NOT spend the £165 that Frogs Island want per tank.

So, i will end up with a tank one way or another, that will hopefully sit flush with the back of my MSS drawers.....but any thoughts on water purification? I am thinking of something far better than these little Brita filters you can get from Tesco, that can sit in the side lockers permanently perhaps?

Keeping up? Right! So...tank? Check. Purification? Sorted.

How should I be thinking of getting water OUT of the tank? Obviously via the purification system. But, should I be thinking of some sort of plumbing and an external tap? I am aware of the Super Syphon, but this would mean an external process of filtration.

How would I best secure this tank to the floor? The Front Runner one is 67 litres and I wouldnt want that sliding back & forth!

C'mon, thinking caps on please! Feel free to offer any suggstions & advice.

Martin

[Pacey]

I have one of the tall t-shape tanks. When fitted it sits up against the bulkhead of the 90 and sticks out in to the load bay about 4inchs, thats with foam shock absorbent behind it. Its held in places by a brace through strength holes in it. Gonna make you cry now, paid £20 for it from silly friend. http://www.frontrunner.co.za/fr_products/products/FR874.html

Great bit of kit if your limited for space and want to keep the weight centered and low.

The other option I looked at before the above came along, is marine tanks. Plastimo make some that you could swear were designed for 90 load bay.

[Godlykepower]

yep, thats the one I saw in the link.

Geez, £20? Thats such a good price! I would quite like to spend that sort of money. Dont suppose "silly friend" has a couple more lying around?!

Do you have a link to these marine tanks you mention please?

Martin

[Ben_J85JTY]

Hi Martin,

I have been looking at a system for the rear of my 110 DC so have been faced with the same space problems as you in the 90 (the CD is smaller than the 90!)

For tanks, check out CAK tanks, or Ebay bizarrely enough. They seem to do tanks all sizes so I am guessing you will find one to suit. I also had a quotes for a stainless one to be made by a local company which came back at about £175. As expensive as the Frogs Island ones, but at least it will be to your design.

As for the pump, a Shurflo "On Demand" pump will negate the need for a seperate pressure switch. it senses the pressure in the system and one it drops, ie once you have turned the tap, the pump starts. The trail king series seems to fit the bill and are cheap on ebay at the moment. Personally I am not putting a filter on the system as I plan only to fill it with clean, fresh water. To put that water in I am going to fit a deck filler to the side of the truckman back.

The hardest part I have found is a decent tap to fit the end, but BOAB may come up trumps on that one.

Hope this helps!

Ben

[Pacey]

Unfortunately not, I even think he got it from scrap iron as well, so paid silly dollar for it.

http://www.marinescene.co.uk/category/284/water-tanks give you and idea. Prices I see might be cheap but then I live on an Island with a quite a few marine shops vi-ing for trade.

[Godlykepower]

I have found CAK tanks before, many months ago.....and could not remember the name just before writing this thread! Thanks for that!

Any link to the Shurflo pumps? I cant seem to find the one your on about on their website.

What is a "deck filler"....excuse my ignorance.

I plan on only filling up with fresh, clean water.....but some of the places I will be travelling through, this cant be guaranteed, so better safe than sorry.

[Pacey]

Literally as it says, so you can fill the tanks up from the boat Deck.

[Godlykepower]

Literally as it says, so you can fill the tanks up from the boat Deck.

So, in our case...the filler would just be on the top face of the tank?

[Godlykepower]

Are there any safety implications with regards to drinking water coming from a stainless steel tank?

[Ben_J85JTY]

Stainless Stell tanks are safer than Ali tanks, and stronger than Plastic.

As for the pump, something like this Shurflo

As for a deck filler, I am planning to use something like this Deck Filler

And finally The surflo trail king series Trail King

[BogMonster]

There's a magic invention called "bottled water"

[leeds]

Many food stuffs and liquids such as milk etc are transported in stainless steel tanks. So there is no safety fears from the stainless steel itself.

Keep fuel and water tanks as low as possible. You might want to consider flexible water containers rather then one or two fixed volume tanks especially if you are planning on using a 90 as an overland vehicle where space can be at a premium.

My solution in the 110 was a stainless 70 litre tank in the rear footwell plus some water bladders. This was made by WVA Holdings/Safari Equip in Bradford. Be careful of only having one water tank as if you top up with 'dodgy' water all your water supply is contaminated. Ensure your drinking water is kept clean in a seperate tank you can always use less clean water for washing etc. Use of wet wipes reduces personal washing water requirements. Using kitchen roll etc for cleaning plates etc can reduce washing up water as well.

HTH

Regards

Brendan

[Godlykepower]

Thats brilliant, thanks for that.

Are the first and third links not the same product though?

What sort of psi rating would be necessary then, as i see there is a range from 10-30 psi.

[Ben_J85JTY]

Thats brilliant, thanks for that.

Are the first and third links not the same product though?

What sort of psi rating would be necessary then, as i see there is a range from 10-30 psi.

Probably!

The just came off my Work in planning stage spreadsheet!

[Godlykepower]

[Godlykepower]

There's a magic invention called "bottled water"

Not always an option, as not everywhere will stock it, apart from big towns & cities, and I cannot afford relying on stocking up on bottled water, when I have long stages of the journey to drive when I will be passing little or no civilisation....i.e crossing the Sahara etc.

Keep fuel and water tanks as low as possible. You might want to consider flexible water containers rather then one or two fixed volume tanks especially if you are planning on using a 90 as an overland vehicle where space can be at a premium.

ALL my space is at a premium anyhow! I was thinking of having the bulk of the water supply in this fixed tank, and maximum one or two jerry-like water cans to add to this? I have a Camelbak water carrier for cycling, and I will be hanging a pair of these on the backs of the two front seats, with the tube just hanging over your shoulder, so water always on hand whilst driving......bit like a Formula 1 driver!

The other reason I dont want to concentrate too heavily on only taking flexible water tanks, is that I am trying to design the layout of my vehicle and make it "future proof" i.e I am NOT designing it for a trip to Africa only, as it will be used in the future on other expeditions.

So, if I spend a little time & effort NOW on getting everything nailed down just right, and not cut corners/use cheap, rubbish parts etc......I will have a vehicle that can (even more so?) go anywhere. If I was thinking of water supply for JUST Africa, and was selling the vehicle after doing the trip....I would be looking at the cheapest way of carrying water (and indeed, the cheapest of everything, parts-wise)

Martin

[Eightpot]

Plastic water bottles litter Africa pretty badly, and it's quite common for empty bottles to be collected and filled from whatever source is available, then sealed and sold on the streets or in shops.

Even in Morocco I've seen a shopkeeper filling a crate of water bottles with a manky old hose round the back of his shop.

I'll be getting my next tank from CAK, had a look at thier gear at the camping show at the NEC this spring and it looks very well made. Also they'll put the filler and drain holes where you want them at the manufacture stage.

Might also be worth considering using a couple of standard water jerry cans, with a submersible pump and located with ratchet straps. That way you can easily fill from a tap in a hotel/restaurant etc if you get the chance. I've found this method quite useful in the past, as you can keep one jerry with fresh water in, and the other with whatever you can get for washing/boiling for tea etc. And if one bursts, your still in business.

Try and keep water as low as you can, and as far forward as possible - and not go overboard on the amount you carry, 90's don't handle very well with lots of water in as it's difficult to get it sat between front and rear springs to share the load. I found mine to be uncomfortably bouncy with a full load, fuel and water on rough pistes. I was only using normal HD springs though, which were nowehere near man enough.

[simonr]

I saw a neat solution which was a T shaped bulkhead tank divided horizontally in to two. The top portion was 'grey' water and the bottom drinking water. The top was connected to the bottom via an external in-line filter - using only gravity to force the water through.

The grey tank was used for everything but drinking and the bottom for drinking only. He had a couple of the camel-pack type tubes connected directly to it (possibly via non return valves?) for the driver & passenger.

I thought it was quite a neat solution with enough total capacity for everything - but potentially all of that drinkable.

Si

[TeriAnn]

One place that is easily overlooked is the unused spaced between the frame bottom and the body panels. This space is protected and any weight added there only helps the C.G. height. I think of it as free load space. Sometimes you can combine spaces, such as unused under the seat box space and space in front of the rear wheel under the body side bench. I have no idea of what a Defender looks like underneath so am not qualified to say how much space you have where. But it wouldn't hurt to lay down under your truck and have a leisurely look for unused space. I keep eying the space alongside the rear propshaft between the frame sections and thinking I might put a box in there one of these days to store spare parts.

I have a 109 two door so is lots of space between the front fuel tank and the front of the rear wheel. When I purchased my truck there was already a 5 gallon horizontal mounted propane tank sitting between the front fuel tank and the rear wheel on the vehicle right side. the tank was mounted to brackets welded to the top of the forward spring mount outrigger.

A five gallon propane tank that takes up no space in the tuck or outside the truck.

When it came time for me to add a water tank I went to the same space on the other side of the truck. I measured the space between the top of the outrigger and the body side bench, the distance between the front axillary fuel tank and the wheel arch and the body side to the side bench side. The top bench of a 109 two door has either a removable plate or a drop box for mounting a spare tyre. I removed the spare tyre box for my measurements. I made a drawing for a water tank that would sit on the outrigger and have the top level with the side bench top. I added a one inch top flange all the way around the top. Making the top width equal to the width of the rear side bench. This meant that I would need to enlarge the spare tyre mount hole in the side bench. The drawing was of a trapezoidal tank with vertical sides and front. The back sloped inwards so that it was tangential to the wheel arch. My design called for a threaded hole at the front right corner for a drain plug and three top openings. One top opening was for a pickup tube which was to be welded in place and have a pipe fitting st the top. One was threaded for a air vent. The last was a hole for inspection/manual cleaning. It is large enough for my hand and to see down with a torch. It required a custom lid.

I took my drawing to a company that does custom stainless steel construction and it was built to my specifications. When I got the tank home I enlarged the spare tyre mount hole to fit the tank, added a rubber pad to the top of the outrigger for the tank to rest upon and lowered the tank into place. I added a couple holes to the flange and bolted the flange to the body. The outrigger carries the weight and the body stabilizes the tank.

From the draw tube to a faucet I have a removable wire screen, a one way flow valve, a shurflo pump to a cartridge water filter to a faucet. The faucet was designed to work with the Shurflo pump so the volume of water pumped depends upon who much I turn the "valve" which is really a rheostat.

For the vent, I just ran a vertical food grade flexible tube up the side behind a cabinet, leaving it open at the end.

I wanted to fill from the outside and I wanted my filler to look Land Rover. I adapted a front fuel filler for the application. I cut a hole into the body side and added the filler plate. I cut off the filler tube just past where it passed through the plate. Then I plastic coated the underside of the fuel cap and the inside of what was left of the fuel tube. Inside I placed food grade plastic fittings to keep water separate from the metal. From there I ran a 2 inch diameter food grade flexible plastic tube to the fuel filler hole in the tank. The water never touches metal until it reaches the stainless steel tank. The tank holds 15 US gallons of water. Basically three 20L water cans without taking up any space inside or outside the vehicle and with all the added weight at frame level.

Vehicle left side. The front filler (left) is for the axillary fuel tank.

The rear filler is for the drinking water. All my fillers are locked. All the fuel fillers

use one key and the lock on the water filler is keyed differently.

I sanitize the tank and replace the filter cartridge 3 times a year or more if I suspect the water source on a trip. TO sanitize the tank I remove the filter cartridge, drain the tank, flow water trough it then replace the bottom plug with the tank empty. I add a cup of bleach and fill the tank. I drive the vehicle around a little to slosh the water and run the pump for a few minutes to sanitize the delivery tubing. After a few hours I drain the tank, rinse it and refill the tank adding a new cartridge. The process is basically the same as used on the big motor caravans.

You vehicle is very different from mine but if you look underneath and in unused spaces you just might find space to build a water tank in. It is a lot more expensive to have a custom tank made up but it vastly opens up the possibilities.

[RichardAllen]

Martin,

I have been looking at the same question for both a 90 and 110 and no conclusion yet. However, I did get a Shurflo pump off eBay from Millar marine with built in on-demand switch and inlet filter. It works fine on various trial setups. (It also got knackered when I used it in anger in the winter as an emergency heating oil pump. Good support from Shurflo fixing the problem - oil distorted the main pump diaphragm - new diaphragm was pretty expensive.)

As for the tank, I have no conclusion as yet. Tom Sheppard in the Vehicle-dependent Expedition Guide comes out against fixed tanks in favour of jerry cans, on the basis of algae green slime build-up, which has to be scrubbed out, and the difficulty of doing so. Also, if you have a white translucent tank, you can visually check water level and signs of algae (eg BOAB bulk tanks). If you have a black/opaque tank (eg army water jerry cans), no light gets through, so there is less algae build-up, but you cannot easily check the water level. It is potentially easier to refill jerry cans than a water tank. However it is easy to rig up a pump so that it can fill the tank from a source, as well as empty a tank to tap / shower. If you badly contaminate a jerry can you can throw it away and replace it, which is less easy with a bulk tank.

Another problem with the jerry can route is that water is heavy and so I want it low down. I noted that with the army jerry cans, the cap sealing is not always 100% so they need to be kept upright, all leading to increase CofG.

Lastly with a part full transverse tank, you get an effect known in ship design circles as free surface. In a nutshell as the vehicle leans to one side, the water flows to that side, transferring the weight and making the vehicle lean further. This is generally not good for stability. In the extreme case of the Herald of Free Enterprise, it caused the ferry to capsize. We are not in this territory here, but if, transversely, you have several smaller tanks, rather than one large one, the free surface effect on stability is minimised.

I am veering towards a load-space frame and ratchet strap holding 4 black army water jerry cans with a flexible pump/hose/filter/tap/shower arrangement to attempt to get the best of both worlds.

From your many posts, we are looking at similar problems in a similar way with a number of varied regions in mind. I will be most interested to learn of what you finally decide to do why, and your subsequent experience with your solution.

Regards

Richard

[Godlykepower]

Richard, that is a very well written response, and you have highlighted some issues I need to address.

I had not even contemplated algae growth in the tank. I had a slight inkling in that direction when I posted the question about safety of water in a stainless tank, but that was more regarding water & metallic reactions.

I really do get the point, and can see the favourability of water Jerry cans; but I really cant see how I can store enough of them to enable me to have a sufficient water supply on board to cover those times when I need an exceptional amount of water, without me sacrificing an amount of storage space that i can ill afford to spare.

I could get away with 1 or 2 of them by my calculations, but if I went with more, I would be trading precious space needed for other essential kit.

Although I am not familiar with the term "free surface" I understand the principle. Surely the amounts of water in question (60-70 litres) sitting low down in between the wheel boxes, could not have that bad an effect, can it?

When i have determined final packed vehicle weights, i will be matching some OME springs to that weight, with some Koni Heavy Track dampers. This surely will alleviate much of the free surface effect & its noticability?

I think the biggest concern you have highlighted for me, is that of algae growth. There has to be a product that can be incorporated into the tank, either at the build stage, or something that can be washed through regularly in order to cleanse, that is not harmful if drank diluted.

There has to be something to keep tanks clean!

A little bit more research on that front will be in order, first port of call being a tank supplier.

Martin

[TeriAnn]

I had not even contemplated algae growth in the tank.

Not an issue with a light proof container that gets sanitized on a regular basis. I've had my stainless steel tank with water continuously inside for 22 years (not the same water obviously). Whenever I've opened up the top inspection plate there has been nothing to clean out. Algae requires light to live. so most any plastic container is a place where it might grow. Except for the opaic black plastic ones.

Teriann

[Ivan]

Martin

Just for information, I have crossed the Simpson Desert in Australia, the Sahara from both Morocco and Libya. All I have ever taken was 2 20Ltr Ex Army Jerry cans. Always had plenty of water. In the Simpson and Libya once we had emptied one, we filled it up with water from an oasis/bore water and just used that for washing etc. But always carry steri tabs, that way if you have to drink the oasis/bore water you can. Tastes c**p but at least it's water.

HTH

Ivan

[RichardAllen]

Richard, that is a very well written response, and you have highlighted some issues I need to address.

I had not even contemplated algae growth in the tank. I had a slight inkling in that direction when I posted the question about safety of water in a stainless tank, but that was more regarding water & metallic reactions.

I really do get the point, and can see the favourability of water Jerry cans; but I really cant see how I can store enough of them to enable me to have a sufficient water supply on board to cover those times when I need an exceptional amount of water, without me sacrificing an amount of storage space that i can ill afford to spare.

I could get away with 1 or 2 of them by my calculations, but if I went with more, I would be trading precious space needed for other essential kit.

Although I am not familiar with the term "free surface" I understand the principle. Surely the amounts of water in question (60-70 litres) sitting low down in between the wheel boxes, could not have that bad an effect, can it?

When i have determined final packed vehicle weights, i will be matching some OME springs to that weight, with some Koni Heavy Track dampers. This surely will alleviate much of the free surface effect & its noticability?

I think the biggest concern you have highlighted for me, is that of algae growth. There has to be a product that can be incorporated into the tank, either at the build stage, or something that can be washed through regularly in order to cleanse, that is not harmful if drank diluted.

There has to be something to keep tanks clean!

A little bit more research on that front will be in order, first port of call being a tank supplier.

Martin

Martin,

Just seen this at work. Tom Sheppard mentions some silver (iodide?) product for restricting algae growth, but I don't have the book to hand. I do know that algae on a fish tank is a b*****d to scrub off with a scourer, and you can see it easily through the glass. Given the seriousness of dodgy water, and the difficulties of cleaning, if your bulk tank does get algae, your only option might be to bin the tank and revert to cans. For jerry cans, I reckon you can get 4 between the wheel boxes next to the bulkhead (I'll try it tonight), so that would be 80 litres. Not masses for crossing the Sahara, but enough as a starter for 10.

Regarding the free surface bit, I don't think it will be a massive issue on its own. However, once you think about roof tents (70kg high up), fuel tanks on a roof rack (25kg each, again high up), spare wheel on the roof (20kg ?) you easily get to see why stability becomes an issue, uprated suspension is needed and Tom Sheppard recommends roll-cage style stiffening between chassis and roof rack. I am therefore constantly looking to get weight removed, necessary weight lower down and every little bit helps. Stiffening the suspension to reduce the roll does indeed reduce the effect, but at the cost of a harsher ride over already harsh terrain.

As a for instance, I have a 65litre auxiliary fuel tank on my 90, and have kept the anti-roll bars with standard springs/dampers which have now done 95k. The ride is noticeable different when fuelled up (say 110kg low down) from when empty. It is by no means dangerous, but still noticeable.

I would really really recommend getting onto the Royal Geographical Society and buying a copy of Tom Sheppard Vehicle-dependent Expedition Guide. (Link on here somewhere) It is simply authoritative and encyclopaedic.

Regards

Richard

[SteveG]

What about using a 90 TD5 plastic fuel tank (new one naturally )??

Fits between chassis rails out of the way, holds 65l. Standard fittings can be adapted easily.

This seems like a sensible reply...

Martin

Just for information, I have crossed the Simpson Desert in Australia, the Sahara from both Morocco and Libya. All I have ever taken was 2 20Ltr Ex Army Jerry cans. Always had plenty of water. In the Simpson and Libya once we had emptied one, we filled it up with water from an oasis/bore water and just used that for washing etc. But always carry steri tabs, that way if you have to drink the oasis/bore water you can. Tastes c**p but at least it's water.

HTH

Ivan

Also as I'm sure that the guys who have visited Morrocco often enough will testify, the Sahara is not a remote place anymore, so you are no longer that far from water, fuel and assistance if needed. No reason to be ill prepared, but also no need to to be self sufficient for 500+ miles

Steve