300Tdi still very poorly

[Tetsu0san]

In previous threads I have been over the repair work that I have had to do to my Disco recently, and now it's just got a whole lot worse.

I have just finished rebuilding a new head as the old one had cracked. I bought what has appears to be a newer design for improved cooling (part no. LDF500180) and a shimmed metal headgasket (part no. LVB500220). It all went together OK and it sounded a lot better than it did. The previous head had got valves in the wrong seats, no spring seat washers for the valves and a broken rocker shaft.

However, I took it out for a drive and within half a mile I noticed the heater was going cold, so I drove it back to the workshop to see the water being forced out of the header tank. Thinking it was an air lock I messed around for about an hour trying to fix this but it then became apparent that the water system is actually being pressurised very quickly. When my original cracked head was on I could run it without the header tank cap on and it would not force the water out, but not this time.

What could be causing this? I have a few theories but I know there is a lot more knowledge and experience on this forum.

One theory is a cracked liner in one of the cylinders, but the effect this would have would depend on if they are dry of wet liners. Does anyone know what they are? Also, I have not come across anyone talking about a cracked liner on any forums (not yet anyway)

Another theory is that the block is distorted or cracked, but I hope this is unlikely.

A third is that I have bought a defective head and/or headgasket. When it arrived I saw Britpart all over the box and the headgasket was also in a Britpart packet. I am well aware of their reputation, but neither of these parts have any moving parts so I presume it's OK. The quality of the finish on the head was not brilliant, but as it’s not the same as the genuine one which I just took off I would think this is normal

Could it also be that my block is not able to take this newer design of head? I have a very early 300Tdi, but again i would imagine that it's not going to be that.

If anyone can help me with this issue, I will be very grateful.

[mobyone]

it could be a cracked block. if you run one of these engines for a while without water, as the pumps are quite high up then they lose the water circulation around the block with only a modest loss of water . did you not look when the head was off? the 300 tdi has dry liners, a cracked cylinder would have been very likely the cause of the water being forced out, but you would have had an awful lot of oil/water mixing in this instance.

get the head you bought skimmed and pressure checked before you do anything else, or you wont know if this is the cause either.

shame when you get bad experiences with these, great engines when they work well. and they do most of thr time.

whip the head off and rotate the engine on the crank nose pulley to look down the cylinders before you do anything else. if there are cracks, you will see them.

then do the head checks, then get a good gasket from a reputable company.

dont lose faith in these cars, you gotta take care of 'em!!!

[Tetsu0san]

Thanks for your advice.

So its not likely to be a cracked block then? I was thinking that if it was a wet liner engine and the liner had cracked that it would increase pressure in the water system, but as it is not a wet liner engine then it's looking good from that point of view. When the head was off I looked down the cylinders and it looked OK, although the last cylinder looked a little scored, but nothing serious. I will have another look though.

As I said before, I bought this head brand new and I fitted all the bits off my old head. I had taken my old head to be checked and it was proved to be cracked. I would not expect a new head to be cracked, but it's not out of the question I suppose. I don't want to get the new head checked as this is fairly expensive and I doubt the company I bought it from would refund me for getting it checked. I wanted to exhaust all other avenues before I start having to spend money to get new parts examined.

I have read about fauly head gaskets, but I can't find any part numbers or anything else that may point me in that direction.

[mobyone]

a scored liner won't cause the fault you describe, not in any instance. so dont worry about that as part of the problem, but do check it properly next time you take off the head. did you offer up the gasket against the old one to check it for the same hole locations?

how did you torque down the head bolts? if you do it wrong, you can warp the head but generally, you just ruin the gasket sealing ability.

when you torque them up, do it in the correct order, and torque them up in stages, as in 50% of the torque on each head bolt then 25%, then the final 25%. this almost always prevents this problem. but i am not saying for sure this is your problem either.

if it is pressurising the water system, then it is blowing through from combustion chamber to the water galleries, but have you cleaned out the cooling system of sh$te. if the head went, you will need to flush out the cooling system, especially the radiator as carp just gathers in the bottom of 'em. this will also cause the head problems as the coolant is not circulated so it overheats!! and finally, as always the thermostat might not have been opening which caused the head to fail, and they are dirt cheap to replace.

***** the reason the water was not forced out last time was probably because the gasket was not leaking across from exhaust to water jacket, more than likely it blew across two cylinders where the crack was. but it is not likely to fail the same way as it was working as it should have before this all started for you.

you might get away with just replacing the gasket(not britpart,ever) and the thermostat. and flushing out the cooling system, and removing the radiator(bit of a job)and cleaning it out properly. but if you dont check the head, you could be pis**ng in the wind.

£30 for a minimum skim, £12 for head bolts, <£5 for a thermostat, can't remember how much a head gasket is. but it should all come in under a ton. it is up to you to pressure test the head, another £30. and the head bolts are optional as you might have replaced them last time(if so dont replace them this time). and check the thermostat in boiling water to see if it opens before you buy one, but if in any doubt, just replace it.

i hate it when you take the time to put stuff back together and it goes wrong.

at least this time over you will be fairly competent at doing it, not being cheeky, but you should be more confident this time.

so good luck

richard

[Tetsu0san]

The thermostat was not opening properly so I am getting another one, and I am also geting a new head gasket to replace this one. A pressure test will cost me £40, and a skim is probably will be more, but I am going to fit the new gasket before I go down this route. The engine didn't get hot and if this still does the same then I will request a replacement from my supplier, or a refund.

When I take the head off I am going to put a straight edge on the block and onthe head to check to see if its warped in any way. Unlikely on the either, but it's the cheapest way to check.

If I had known it was Britpart stuff then I would not have purchased it from this supplier. I am sure it's only being unlucky and nothing to do with Britpart (who amd I trying to kid...)

[eddyoz]

Had exactly the same problem you are experiencing.Replaced head with the newer design[could see no advantage because the extra water jacket holes do not have corresponding ones in the block]but used original type gasket from Elring and used new head bolts.Bled the cooling system.After running for a while it started pressuring the coolant tank.Checked levels, all ok,but still pressurising.Replaced thermostat[although old one tested ok]and also the reservoir cap.Topped up the system and took for a run,all ok!

You could remove the head and this time use an Elring gasket [Turners use these as they have had problems with the metal gaskets]and new head bolts if the number of times the old ones have been used is unknown,carefully torqued down of course.Maybe give the gasket a light spray of Permatex Copper Spray a Gasket[old Jag XK method of prolonging gasket seal]Check thermostat and coolant reservoir cap and replace if slightest doubt.

Good Luck!

[Les Henson]

I would have got the Britpart head checked for flatness and I definiteley wouldn't use one of their gaskets. Get the head checked, buy a decent make of gasket, and perhaps new head bolts if you're not sure of their history.

There's a bit of a shortage of heads for the 300TDi engine, so it's likely that there are some very poor quality ones being made.

Chances are that that's all it needs to put it right.

Les.

[Tetsu0san]

OK, here is an update on the fun and games I have had.

I rang the supplier and they sent me another gasket (another Britpart metal gasket) and I set about looking at the problem. I removed the head and it was pretty obvious that the head gasket was blowing and letting compression out of cylinder 4 straight into the valve area and into the waterway. The black paint had come off the gasket in this area. I was pretty annoyed to say the least There was also evidence that the gasket was not sealing in other places.

I rang the supplier and I explained the issue and I told them that I was not happy fitting a metal gasket. They contacted Britpart who told them that the torque settings for the bolts were 40Nm, then 120deg on all bolts then another 60deg on the main ones. This was completely different to what I was told before, as they said it was the same as with a normal gasket (40Nm, then 120deg on all bolts and then 20deg on the main ones). After a few more phone calls I got them to agree to honour the warranty on the head if I used a non-Britpart head gasket. I was sent an Elring composite gasket and I fitted this.

I spent about 20 mins bleeding the water system and took it for a drive. So far it all looks good, but I still have a little air in the system. I know how bad they are to get the air out, so I am not too concerned but I am still trying to get over the thought that it's pressurising the system again. Lack of confidence in the car will be here for a little while now after all this messing about.

So basically it seems that I was either sold a faulty gasket, was told the incorrect bolt tightening information or I fitted it wrong. I think it's a combination of the first and second points, but I still have this niggling feeling that I will be doing it all over again when the Britpart head cracks or warps.

On a good note though I have the car back on the road and as I advanced the pump its got a little more spring in its step, and it sounds way better than before.

BUT I HAVE LEARNED A VALUABLE LESSON... ASK IF I AM BUYING BRITPART WHEN I PLACE AND ORDER AND THEN JUST PUT THE PHONE DOWN IF THEY SAY YES! I will never buy Britaprt stuff again, even if it is by accident

Oh, and thanks to all that helped me on this. Your information was invaluable

[matt bristol]

head torque is 40nm then 60 deg, then another 60 deg then 20 more for the inner ones, not 120 in one go.

I was also told this is for using new bolts, which I didn't, and apparently my head is now massively over torqued!

[Tetsu0san]

When I said 120, I meant 120 in total not 120 in one go. Did you do yours in one go then?

[Rotor]

I would have got the Britpart head checked for flatness and I definiteley wouldn't use one of their gaskets. Get the head checked, buy a decent make of gasket, and perhaps new head bolts if you're not sure of their history.

There's a bit of a shortage of heads for the 300TDi engine, so it's likely that there are some very poor quality ones being made.

Chances are that that's all it needs to put it right.

Les.

I`ve seen two makes of 300tdi head going around, AMC,made in Spain you can easily identify these as the letter`s AMC are cast into the head on the rear r/h side , these are the cheaper ones ,many distributors use p.n ERR5027 ,the OEM heads are Argentine and normally come with p.n LDF500180 and are preferred by some engineer`s ,both are in stock with BearMach.

From what I`ve seen not using Elring gaskets and not making sure it`s torqued down correctly are the main reason for early failure (assuming cooling is in perfect order).

[theNEWT]

Old Hand: In a previous post you stated this: "I rang the supplier and I explained the issue and I told them that I was not happy fitting a metal gasket. They contacted Britpart who told them that the torque settings for the bolts were 40Nm, then 120deg on all bolts then another 60deg on the main ones. This was completely different to what I was told before, as they said it was the same as with a normal gasket (40Nm, then 120deg on all bolts and then 20deg on the main ones). After a few more phone calls I got them to agree to honour the warranty on the head if I used a non-Britpart head gasket. I was sent an Elring composite gasket and I fitted this."

So here the difference is the final stage on the 'main bolts', I assume you mean the inner M12x140. The difference is 40degs. I can imagine this would increase sealing around the cylinders.

Do you think the head gasket would have still failed if it were torqued the extra 40 degs? From what I have read the biggest issue seems to be getting the block deck to the required RA and of course assuming its dead flat...and due to high pressure is super critical with diesels.

Taken from: http://www.aa1car.com/library/2005/ic010532.htm

(If the engine has aluminum heads, there should be no more than 0.002 in. (0.05 mm) out-of-flat in any direction. )

(If the engine uses an MLS head gasket, the recommended surface finish may be 20 RA or less.)

[Boydie]

1.) Don't use a MLS gasket (metal) use a composite. Only ever use a MLS on a brand new block and brand new head, both the surfaces must be 100% perfect for these gaskets to seal.

2.) Get an Elring composite gasket and torque it up EXACTLY as per the manual - Elring normally put a script in with their gaskets showing the method.

3.) Replace the thermostat and get rid of the little toggle and ensure that the bleed orifice is at the top.

4.) To fill the system with coolant:

Park the car on level ground.

Remove the header tank cap and the radiator and thermostat housing plugs.

Fill the header tank until coolant starts flowing out of the top of the radiator - you will note that the normal "level" in the header tank is at the same height of the top of the radiator.

Refit the radiator plug and fit the header tank cap - not overly tight but exactly as you would for normal use..

With a funnel pour coolant into the top of the thermostat housing, gently squeeze the top & bottom hoses to expel any remaining air.

When the system is full refit the thermostat housing plug, the system is now full and purged.

Lastly Do not ever use Britparts for anything other than poo paper.

[honitonhobbit]

I'd echo the Elring thing - no other option, but make sure it's from them - not a dodgy source

I'd also suggest you ALWAYS replace the head bolts with new (OE)

Finally, you can lift the header tank in the engine bay - make up some brackets to extend the mounting points; sure helps with bleeding

[cackshifter]

I think with Britpart poo paper I would have to wear a glove...