PS_Bond Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 *Yet another* stupid question... I may be being daft, but this morning I tried to turn the engine crank by hand (trying to check the lift pump). It moved about 30 degrees, then I couldn't move it any further. Put a breaker bar on the socket, still couldn't move it any further. When I did the timing (er - 10 months ago, probably; this has taken a long time so far), I turned the engine through 720 degrees using a ratchet, but then the injector pipes weren't fitted. Pulling #1 & #4 glowplugs enabled me to get far more movement on the crank (maybe 360 degrees), so I'm assuming it is just the compression that's stopping me. The starter motor isn't stuck, the serpentine belt isn't fitted and the beasty isn't in gear - so am I just deluding myself that I think I should be able to turn the engine further? Cheers, Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LandyManLuke Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 You should be able to turn the engine over, but you will have to defeat the compression of each cylinder on each stroke as you get to that part of the cycle, as well as the torque required by the fuel pump. On my rather old 200tdi, as the ratchet gets hard to turn, I can hear the air leaking past the valves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PS_Bond Posted October 19, 2011 Author Share Posted October 19, 2011 Thanks - that's what I'd expect... But I wouldn't have expected to not move it with a 2' bar! Is it remotely plausible that the valves on this example are so good that I can't get it to leak? (yes, I know - stop laughing ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Try turning it the opposite way and see if it comes to a dead stop. If the engine hasn't turned for a while iy may well have bore corrosion above the pistons which is stopping the engine from turning. Les Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverik Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 be mindfull of turning it the other way though as you could cause the timeing belt to jump a tooth or 2 on the injector pump timing pulley. Mav Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PS_Bond Posted October 20, 2011 Author Share Posted October 20, 2011 Given the timing belt giving up is what killed the previous engine, I'd prefer not to hit that again. Just to be sure, the correct rotation is clockwise when viewed from the front, isn't it? I probably ought to replace the front cover gasket - went with "that looks OK" when I changed the belt... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Cylinder pressure wouldn't stop the engine from turning - piston ring leak by would allow it even if the valves were perfectly sealed. Only 3 things really in that case - bore corrosion, valve timing, or pistons striking the head. You can check if it's valves by undoing the tappet adjusters as far as they will go and then try to turn the engine. A pushrod not seated correctly in the guide will hold a valve open when it would otherwise be fully closed, so check pushrod location. If all that checks out, then head off I'm afraid. Slacken the head bolts a few turns and then once again try to turn the engine. If it does turn, then valve stand dow/ wrong head gasket/ head over-skimmed If it still doesn't turn, then head off for a look. Turning the engine backwards shouldn't have any effect. The tensioner is static - spring loaded tensioners will allow the belt to slip. Only way it will slip is if the belt is slack anyway, or you give it too much welly and take a few teeth off it Les. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PS_Bond Posted October 20, 2011 Author Share Posted October 20, 2011 Deep joy. Still, the tappet adjustment doesn't look too tricky - as with a lot of things on this engine, I've never tried it before. Used to have the thing regularly serviced by a local specialist - asked them when the cam belt needed changing, they said they'd get back to me; a couple of weeks later the belt failed & trashed the engine. So now my intention is to do the entire damn thing myself... Between the workshop manual, Microcat (when I can work out what goes where!) and asking stupid questions here, I think it's feasible. I'm getting a bit carried away with new fasteners now though. I may have to take the head off anyway - there's a broken glowplug that hasn't responded to a screw extractor (was sheared off before it arrived with me). Still puzzled by the fact that I could turn the engine without injector pipes & 3/4 glowplugs fitted though. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reiny Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 I turn the engine over by jacking a front wheel up, engaging 5th gear and slowly rotating the wheel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cackshifter Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Used to have the thing regularly serviced by a local specialist - asked them when the cam belt needed changing, they said they'd get back to me; a couple of weeks later the belt failed & trashed the engine. So now my intention is to do the entire damn thing myself... Between the workshop manual, Microcat (when I can work out what goes where!) and asking stupid questions here, I think it's feasible. I'm getting a bit carried away with new fasteners now though. If the cambelt has failed,the most likely cause of not turning is pistons hitting valves, so don't lean on that breaker bar. You'll need to follow Les's advice re rockers, or as you say take off the head and assess the damage. Nigel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PS_Bond Posted October 20, 2011 Author Share Posted October 20, 2011 This one hasn't - the old one did and caused chunks to be blown out of the bottom end. The breaker bar's wonderful for some stuff, but as good as power tools for helping things to go wrong quickly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PS_Bond Posted October 20, 2011 Author Share Posted October 20, 2011 All tappet adjusters dialled way back, none of the push rods look out of place (although it has to be said I wouldn't neccessarily know what that looked like, but they look OK). Ho hum. Took the starter off despite being fairly sure it wasn't that. I don't suppose it could be the FIP jamming things? So... Head gasket, replacement bolts, replacement manifold gaskets (and a few studs, most likely)? I don't have an angular torque gauge yet either. What do I do if it is corrosion in the bores? A 3 legged glaze breaking doofer and new piston rings for all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustyNissanPrairie Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 starter motor engaged on the flywheel? seized alternator? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PS_Bond Posted October 21, 2011 Author Share Posted October 21, 2011 Starter motor removed to double-check that, serpentine belt not fitted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PS_Bond Posted October 22, 2011 Author Share Posted October 22, 2011 Good news/bad news: The good bit - I spoke to a guy at work yesterday, who suggested a gentle tap of each valve through the medium of a rubber mallet (with the rocker arm off) might loosen a mildly stuck valve. And it has - I can turn the engine with the sort of resistance I'd expect again. However, on going to refit the rocker arm, it turns out the shaft is broken (cunningly hidden by the pedestal between 3 & 4). I did wonder why the rear pedestal nut had no torque on it... The dead engine has one (con rods through block), but I don't know if that's false economy; a Britpart one is only £7.80. Faster though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Murphy Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Peter, A little more good news, you'll need to helicoil the threads in the head that hold the rocker shaft studs. The threads in the stud holes become detached usually due to cam belt failure - the valve breaks the rocker and puts a hell of a load on the studs. If you don't repair the threads you WILL be replacing the rocker shaft again Been, seen, done Use the shaft from the old engine or a new genuine rocker shaft is about £30 but I think you'll find the Britpart item a false economy. HTH Mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PS_Bond Posted October 22, 2011 Author Share Posted October 22, 2011 You'll be pleased to learn I'm fundamentally against shooting the messenger Thank you for the warning; I've never installed a helicoil so *that* will be a learning experience too. Is that something that can be done with the head on? Pushrods looked straight - not that I dialled them in, just eyeballed, so if it was a cambelt fail they either weren't killed or have been replaced. If a broken shaft is symptomatic of a cambelt failure, there's a good chance the old one had that stress on it too. Still, I can turn the thing by hand again - just replaced the lift pump along with a load of other bits & pieces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Murphy Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Yup, the broken shaft is symptomatic of the sheared thread which is in it's turn symptomatic of a cam belt failure. The most commonly available replacement thread insert sets are called Recoil, I've used a great number of these. You'll find them on Ebay like these. Buy the correct size drill, follow the instructions carefully and take your time and you'll have no trouble. I can't remember off the top of my head if the studs are M6 or M8 but I'm sure someone who remembers will be along presently They can be fitted with the head in place. Time and patience spent now is an investment in the future of your engine, good luck Mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farmerboy_y2k Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 I don't suppose it could be the FIP jamming things? It was the FIP jamming that stripped my belt when i was doing 60mph earlier this year. Once we got it stripped down it would again turn by hand, but the pump would occasionally jam when turned by hand, so something must have broke inside it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PS_Bond Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 Yup, the broken shaft is symptomatic of the sheared thread which is in it's turn symptomatic of a cam belt failure.The most commonly available replacement thread insert sets are called Recoil, I've used a great number of these. You'll find them on Ebay like these. Buy the correct size drill, follow the instructions carefully and take your time and you'll have no trouble. I can't remember off the top of my head if the studs are M6 or M8 but I'm sure someone who remembers will be along presently They can be fitted with the head in place. Time and patience spent now is an investment in the future of your engine, good luck I'm not sure that I want to rely on the old rocker shaft given that... For £30 I don't think it's worth the risk. I suppose I get some crack test spray, but if it's been stressed without cracking that won't show. Thinking about it, there was some lateral play in the stud on the replacement. Should I be doing all of them or just the ones with noticeable play? Thining about it, I wonder if the other rocker arm components ought to be replaced (or at least examined carefully). As for patience with this lump... It's been off the road long enough, I can spend a bit more time on it - it'd be nice to get it completed before the snow though! I've taken to derusting and restoring or outright replacing every fastener going as I'm that fed up with seized nuts. Thanks again! It was the FIP jamming that stripped my belt when i was doing 60mph earlier this year. Once we got it stripped down it would again turn by hand, but the pump would occasionally jam when turned by hand, so something must have broke inside it. Good to know - after a fashion - dare I ask how bad the damage was? I was only doing 40 when mine went (in rush hour, on the M27) and that was catastrophic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farmerboy_y2k Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Not as bad as I was expecting, but mines a defender 200tdi which don't seem to suffer as much damage. you can see where the crank pulley stripped the belt when it carried on turning and the belt stopped. it bent a few of the push rods but other than that it was ok. but as my stem seals were leaking we swapped the head for one my mate had refurbed for me. After taking the head off could see some nice valve shaped marks on the cylinders. Got a FIP off a 200 disco on it now. Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PS_Bond Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 I know there's aftermarket kits to replace the timing belt setup with gears, but I cannot understand why the engine designers didn't opt for a chain setup at least. Once this thing is functioning again I'll start pulling the old engine to pieces... Might be something salvageable from it. Can anyone suggest a supplier for the rocker shaft (ERR4848) that definitely *isn't* Britpart, please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 try http://www.brit-car.co.uk/product.php?xProd=85034 it doesn't say if it's a genuine LR part or other supplier. or try http://www.turnerengineering.co.uk/acatalog/300Tdi.html 30th item from top of this list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PS_Bond Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 Interesting... Britcar also offer an ERR4848G at £49ish. There's not that many search hits for that code though. Turner Eng's shaft price is more in line with the Britcar std one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 the G on the end is just a mark used by lots of independent suppliers to denote a LR Genuine item. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.