Steve Warman Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 I have an issue when starting my petrol 90 for the first time. It normally sits around for a week or two, depending on what we're doing as a family, but when I go to start it up for the first time it's incredibly sluggish and barely turns over the engine as if the battery is drained. I can then hook up my mains car starter and it jumps into life instantly. I then go out and worry that it won't start again but when I go to start it up again it's fine to start as if the battery is back to normal. I suspect the battery is somewhere on the poorer side of condition but I don't know how to check. Im also wondering if it's due to the cold weather as it's only started happening after summer. Can I insulate the battery box? Would this have any benefit? Having read a number of threads of diesel issues I might need to check the wiring as I noticed the clamp on the red battery pole had cracked so that needs replacing anyway. On the subject of the wiring I have a cut off switch going between the battery and starter for theft purposes but this hasn't caused any issues before. No other running problems are seen after its been running for the first time Does anyone have any ideas what could cause this initial starting problem? Some of the other threads lead me to believe that a battery conditioner may be beneficial so if you have any recommendations I would be grateful. Thanks Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutley Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 Had a simular problem with the wifes RAV4 cracked/spit terminal on the battery, renewed it and it's as good as it ever was, so i would definately suggest a new one asap......While fiddling with the battery always worth checking that the earth is sound, check where it earths to chassi, undo remove and clean up the surface area with a file, wire brush, emory paper and the likes, then replace. Then that 2 less things to check next time your battery faulters. But sort the terminal though. Cheers Mutley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Warman Posted December 3, 2011 Author Share Posted December 3, 2011 Cheers Mutley, sounds like a good start, I'll get on and order one in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Warman Posted December 12, 2011 Author Share Posted December 12, 2011 As an update I've checked the connections and cleaned them up, changed the battery clamp but it got no better. I thought maybe the battery was a little drained so put it on charge. The battery never read that it was fully charged but was fizzing merrily away so I thought I'd better stop that. Took it off charge, took a reading at 13.6v, shortly after read 13v and half an hour after charging it now reads 12.7v Is it safe to assume my battery is a goner? It's a 663 tractor battery at the moment, any recommendations on a replacement? I've read good things about the optima red top, but which one works? Any other makes and models? I probably should get on in before the weather turns ridiculous. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickeyw Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Steve, as Mutley said, check the earth connections, and that they are not only tight but clean too. There will be more than one connection, often one from engine to chassis (on my V8 90 it's at the front left corner of the engine) as well as battery to chassis. Also make sure the terminals on the starter motor are secure and clean. A 663 is one big battery and should be ample for your purposes, if it isn't on its way out. Also bear in mind that battery efficiency drops massively as temperature drops, even for a healthy battery. On top of that it takes a lot more to turn an engine on a cold morning. I can't recall exact figures but the %age loss when at 0 deg C is surprising. Batteries are rated at 20 deg C IIRC. I think Optimas are over rated, and over priced. If you need to, get another one the same as you have, or smaller. I used to engine start and winch with a 643, which is a size down from yours Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacr2man Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Sounds like the battery , when you renew fit the biggest (CCA and a/H and reserve) you can it will last a lot longer than fitting a smaller one , gives better cranking speed , and you'r not cycling as deep which is not good for normal starting battery . JMHE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Another top-tip which has served me well over the years is..... Run a separate, heavy (35mm^2) earth from the battery -ve terminal to one of the starter motor mounting bolts. Other than winches, the starter draws more current than anything else yet it is connected to the battery on the negative side by two weedy earth straps bolted to rusty studs on the chassis (one from battery to chassis and the other from the chassis to starter). Even a well made connection can drop 50A when the starter is cranking - so by removing two of the four connections you can deliver 100A more to the starter. If the earth straps are not brand new and shiny - the loss only gets bigger. Your battery sounds like it's on its last legs and is self discharging. When you are looking for a replacement, you need something with a CCA rating above 700A (or an MCA above 900A) and a capacity over 60Ah. For the purposes of starting, the CCA / MCA rating is more important than the Ah Capacity. As batteries get physically bigger, the Ah capacity increases proportionally, but the CCA does not necessarily. This means you could have a physically HUGE battery which is still incapable of turning over your engine on a cold day. CCA stands for Cold Cranking Amps and is the current it will deliver into a certain load at 0 deg F. MCA Marine Cranking Amps is similar but it is measured at 0 deg C. As the temperature drops, the discharge current drops too so the MCA figure will always be higher. Very roughly, the CCA will be about 0.8 x MCA - which allows you to make a like for like comparison between batteries quoting the other. Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorrick Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Hi Steve, Also just to point out that each cell in the battery will charge at a rate of 2.37 volts before it gasses (Fizzes this is normal as you are creating Hydrogen gas when charging) when it is in a good state and will giving you a voltage of 14.22 volts. The cells themselves are capable of holding 2.14 volts each so 12.84 volts max, so your initial voltage drop down to 13.7 is normal as it is dropping from the gassing capacity to the physical capacity. But a few things you can check. firstly is the Specific gravity (you can buy the testers for a couple of quid Halfords or a car accessory shop) the acid/Water mix which should be fully charged 1.265 at 75 deg C. but at 7 deg it will only be 1.24, so don't think you have a dud battery until you look up the gravity against the temperature, you can find a chart on the web, many a good expensive battery has been thrown away due to over enthusiastic judgements. Secondly It will also lose 35% of it cranking capacity at 5 deg or below, and if the battery is in a state of discharge it can freeze and crack the casing also when you charge look and see if one cell starts fizzing straight away as this will show that you have a broken/damaged cell, so the current will not flow properly on cranking or charging, the easy option if it does not get used all the time especially over winter is put a battery optimizer on it so that you have it plugged into the mains and the optimizer keeps it at 100% without damaging the battery, I have one on my bike and the other 4x4. But as this has only just started and the days are getting colder I would suggest that the battery may be coming to the end of its life, it also may be sulphating up, but that's curable but another story it all depends on how often you use it and how long a run you are taking it on as it will have warmed up the engine and put some charge in the battery so the engine would be easier to turn over and the battery would have more life in it. Regards Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Warman Posted December 12, 2011 Author Share Posted December 12, 2011 Thanks for all the info. I check the connections again and go armed with wire wool and wire brushes. After hearing the battery fizz away when it was on charge, it doesn't sound good to me as far as the battery goes. SimonR, how much do you want for a new numax battery (just checked out your site again) and a new earth strap to go to the starter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Warman Posted December 12, 2011 Author Share Posted December 12, 2011 Thanks Richard, I have no idea how to check the specific gravity but can find out. The 90 only gets used once or twice a week as I commute by train during the week. The journey varies from 5-15 minute journeys so nothing particularly long but it is always easier to start after the initial standing period. the battery wasn't particularly expensive in the first place and has been in for around 3-4 years. As far as an optimiser goes I have thought about that but the truck sits on the road outside the house and I have yet to figure a way to get the cabling across the pavement without strangling someone!!! but nice idea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorrick Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Hi Steve You can get a battery hydrometer any where on the web or as I say Halfords or somwhere like that, they range from £1 upwards and they just check the specific gravity of the Electrolyte in the battery. 5 to 15 mins travel will not charge up the battery enough if you are not using it reglarly. if you want a trip up to suffolk it would charge the battery and if it is a dud I have a new one you could have foc. As for the optimiser I see your point. you could always transmit a powerfull rf signal from the end of your garden and tranform it in the Landy to charge your battery, but I would not like the electricity bill, when i woz a kid in watford, there was a chap who lived in a camper van and travelled around, when near us he had a special Lamp Post that he had adapted the base panel so that when the cover was taken off he had his own 3 pin socket in it so he always parked in the same place and had a free source of electric as long as he was there, of course totally illigal and no one would ever do it but just thought i would regale you of something from my past. if you needa hand pm me. Cheers Richard ps. As you live in H W I would think you had enough hills to bumb start it, unless you live at the bottom of one of :-)course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minimaquinas Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 hi the wife has a diesel polo which always seems to have a flat battery so i baught a 12 volt solar panel that plugs into the lighter socket and sits on the dashboard and keeps the battery topped up when the car is not in use it was a tenner off ebay and works in all weather brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanuki Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 I kinda think your battery's past it. A good test is: Hook it to your battery-charger and give it a good charge, until the charger switches to 'float' charge mode. Disconnect battery-charger. Leave dip-headlights switched on for an hour. Check battery-voltage: if it's less than 12.5V battery's had it. [Headlights+sidelights take around 120 watts. That's 10 amps @12V. An hour of this is 10 Amp/Hours. Which is less than 20% of a Land-Rover battery's capacity. If it can't handle this kind of load it's well-and-truly buggered] --Tanuki. "If an Egg should fall upon a Stone, alas for the Egg. If a Stone should fall upon an Egg, alas for the Egg. If an Egg should fall upon another Egg, alas for both Eggs!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorrick Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Great Idea Tanuki I had totally forgotten about the Solar Charge Mats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Warman Posted December 14, 2011 Author Share Posted December 14, 2011 Ok, so battery is now out of car and charged up. Going to look at the connections this weekend and have also purchased a ctek charger to keep it topped up. I'll do the lights test as well at the weekend to see if it is knackered. Funnily enough, I have a solar panel somewhere for it so that can go back on it as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutley Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 I dont know that much about motors especialy petrol driven, but are the HT leads all ok? had a motor that had starting problems and it was due to one shorting out as it was broken! Then there's the plugs and points to check.....You just know it's going to be a simple fix as and when you find it, but finding it is the hard part. Rooting for ya Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Warman Posted December 14, 2011 Author Share Posted December 14, 2011 Thanks Mutley, I'm fairly sure it's all linked to the battery and the connections. After all this I'll probably find the battery was a bit low and could just do with a good charge but it could probably also do with one of these conditioners Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevorevans Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Am having the same trouble with my 300tdi discovery at the mo, been fine untill the cold weather now it's disco no go, but as you described once started via jump pack/leads then it will start all day long no problem. Let me know what you come up with, unless it's specifically petrol engine related, as it's starting to become a little boring now having to jump it all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacr2man Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 TE how old is your battery ? as it sounds classic symptoms of arrival winter where the battery is just hanging on due to warmer weather, and therefore less demands and first cold snap and it cant make the grade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Warman Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 Well just to finish this one up I bought myself a ctek battery conditioner and set it going for a couple of days until all the lights looked good. Fitted the battery back in before christmas but haven't gotten around to driving it yet. Thought I'd go out the other day and check the voltages, all looked good, leant over from the passangers side and turned the key, started up without difficulty or pause. In my case it must have been that the battery was so low from only doing short distances that a good condition, and resorting the earth straps, sorted it out. Thanks for all your advice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashtray Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I have seen batteries before losing cells. One minute it will be a good 12.5V, the next a poorly 4V. Batteries usually last 3-5 years in my experience in the trade. Anything over this and your battery has had a good life. Make sure you haven't got any quiescent current draw issues whilst your there which could be causing your battery to go flat. You state that yours is a petrol so due to its age and simplicity there should be no residual current draw from the battery unless you have an alarm fitted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Warman Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 No, no alarm and also have a cut off key fitted on the positive lead to turn off the power when I'm not in it. How do I check for quiescent current draw? Mine is a very simple machine Thanks Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashtray Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 put an ammeter between the earth terminal and the earth clamp with everything switched off, anything 0.5amp is too much and will drain it if left for a couple of days. But make sure you don't operate anything within the vehicle. Most multimeters have an in-built fuse that blows at 10 amps and they arn't the easiest thing to get hold of, or cheap if i remember. Our meters at work have an external trip fuse which operates at 7.5amps just to eliminate blowing up the meter. I work on mercs and when you remove the key a lot of the 50 odd control units are still "awake" so finding current draws can be a real pain in the arse. And you cant just unplug everything until the load disappears as this can wake up other control units. Oh and there are shared fuses that usually have about 5 things running off of them. NIGHTMARE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Warman Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 Cheers ashtray, I'll check it out. I know I can safely say that once tht key is turned there is nothing else running, it really is a simple beast Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutley Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Do you have a CD player in it?....The guy i bought mine off wired the CD Radio in and couldn't get the CD player to switch off even though the radio was! So he had to wire up an independant switch to turn the CD player and radio off, as this was draining the battery.......Now wired up correctly thanks to the help of the guys off here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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